First thing would be to ask that it get modded down to an appropriate forum.

After that, I'm not a big fan of 3betting good regs OOP with a big RIO hand like ATo with these stacks. This type of play works better at 100BB, but it becomes increasingly bad as stack sizes get bigger. With stacks at about 200BB, we're not going to be left with an "eazy" decision on what to do when we start seeing action on an Ace high flop. I understand that with much smaller stacks (more typical of online play) we can be more comfortable getting it in profitably on many favorable board textures, but that's not the case here.

We flop a great board for our hand vs. his range. Sure, AA/KK/AA/TT/QJ have us crushed, but we are dominating a broad range of hands that he might continue with here. Furthermore, we can discount much of his "crushing us" range because most of those holdings would have 4bet us preflop, and they are combinatorially scarce (only one combo of AA, one combo of TT, 3 combos of KK, etc.)

The flop bet is fine, and his call doesn't give us any new important info.

The turn checks through, which is "meh." Maybe we're disguising our hand/inducing, but we may have missed a chance to extract value from hands like AQ/QJ that might be good enough to pay us off, but are looking to pot control and see a showdown on a scary board. If we can't get paid by a turn bet here, then we need to work on our image and open up our valuebetting range against this villain.

On the river, as played, our hand is severely underrepped because of the turn check. This is what makes this the snappiest of snap calls. We haven't shown a great deal of strength, and weaker made hands could easily be shoving here if villain has any range-merging capabilities at all. We are beat by literally three cominations of AK and chop with two combinations of AT. Meanwhile there are ton of weaker Aces, QJ, KK, TT, etc. that could be shoving here either for value, merging, or bluff considerations, and you beat them all.

Those are the thoughts that originally came to my mind. I tried to dumb it down. . . after all, how can I compete with the complex thoughts found in all the "SNAP!" "coward" and "I'm probably folding" posts from the online players with massive winrates. Now, if you don't mind, I'm leaving my paid-for townhome in Philadelphia in my Land Rover with my wife and kid so I can drop several hundred bucks on an overpriced dinner. . . it's Sunday after all.

/troll

I hope your kid is too young to realize what his dad does and the fact he's a live player.

I don't understand Jumanji. You ask cl0r0x why he feels the hand is SSNL/micro worthy and he takes the time to give you a very detailed reason as to why, including street by street thought process and analysis which is pretty much spot on, and yet you continue to troll him and this thread. Your existence in this forum is worthless and beneficial to no one but the asses you enjoy kissing.

If you continue to be a moron, I will be sure to flag every post I see that is dbag in nature until you have issues with more than me and other live player/posters. Cool it.

read his last paragraph and word and then try to say what you just said. You live players play the victims but in reality, you are the victims not of hate, but of your own skill level.

"You live players play the victims but in reality, you are the victims not of hate, but of your own skill level."

This is actually a very witty comment and I would say for many, it can be true.

Anyone who makes more than 35k/year playing this game have anything to say about this live player's hand analysis of the ssnl-level online hand, or the fact that you can make good money playing live 5/10nl and 10/20nl? All I'm seeing is static at this point.

I'm going to wave my penis here while going out on a limb and say I make a ton more off poker than you smarty pants.

I'll wave the penis. 35k is nothing and there are regs at nl200 that make that in less than 2 months.

Let's not be results oriented here.

really? thats a lot of monies in 2 months.

yo till the feds get you for 40%

land of the free home of the brave imo.

Yeah. Not interested in who makes what, honestly.

Just pointing out there is more than one path to the cheese. This is discussed ad nauseam here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...-20-nl-394497/

Also saying that there are some good, thinking live players who can analyze the **** out of hands, at the very least well enough to hang with the guys in this forum, and I'll gladly go toe-to-toe discussing any hand or hold'em concept with any reg here. That's why we're here, right?

Every online hand posted isn't genius, and every live hand isn't brain dead; the truth is in the middle, and there are good/bad examples of both. Furthermore, even good players post some dumb hands every once in a while (sorry, too eazy, for using yours as an example, no offense.)

Also, if you're going to try to come onto an internet forum and put down poker players who grind out serious money playing live, don't post in your Well how you make less than the asst. manager at McDonald's. For real.

Are you talking about me ? lol

LOL. You thought I meant 35k to mean how much I made? That's pretty funny.

watch out for this guy

do people really make more than 35k/yr at mid stakes poker?

Yeah. 15ptbb/100 is about what top players make at live 5/10NL+. It comes out to about 10 big blinds/hour. You have periods where you make more, and you have down weeks where you get raped by variance, but that's a good average earn for a top player. Six figures is certainly attainable, and we are talking about a cash business. . . .

Different question: do most live pro's make that? No. Most sacrifice some -- or even a lot -- of their EV for variance control. It's hard to put your entire stack in the middle on a combo draw, even if it's the right play. You've been working all night grinding that thing up, and it's almost time to go. Now you pick up a SF draw against TPTK, and you don't know how much fold equity you have. A lot of live pros will knuckle down and check instead of doing the right thing and putting those chips in the middle and maximizing their FE, because they want to book that win.

I finally actually read this thread.

Wow

If you cant stand the heat then get out of the kitchen

ahhh god damn i remember i put in $1200 ona ****ing combo draw when i took a 5/10 shot at the RIO last summer and lost.=( The guy was some rando FTP sponsered pro and tanked with bottom set then called me. aldsfjasd;lfjksdlfjksadfl;sa. LOL i was kinda high but i think that was the same day i was sitting next to jamie gold for half an hour without realizing it, ahhh good times.

Entirely different experience losing $1200 in one hand, than shoving for $120 on one of your ten tables and clicking away from it to focus on another screen before you even see the results.

online you play poker, live you just play cards and act like you are trying to get a tell by staring at the other guy through your sunglasses.

Actually I feel it's quite the obvious. Online you play cards and given the extreme volume and large sample sizes from data mining, coupled with software that tells you every stat you need to know, it is often correct to just play a formulaic style often broaching or attempting to reach unexploitability in its nature. Live poker can be played in a very exploitable fashion in order to take advantage of lesser quality players you will face.

Also in regards to both games, I think RBK put it best when he said, "I think in general its best to try and play poker against other deep stack thinking players and just play cards against the short stacks."

Jumanji, notice how in my response there was no malice, prodding, or instigating. A good discussion can be held without whereas no good discussion comes with it...

That thinking is so obvious though? Let me get deep now and give a great quote, "the best players prefer position, not out of position". I just enjoy giving you guys sarcastic answers that I'm sure you understand. That's the point of discussion right? Understanding the other?

jloc,

Your posts are widely read and respected by top players in HSNL and MSNL, both online and live. Your hand analyses have a reputation of being amongst the most thoughtful and accurate.

So, why are you still choosing to stick around around and argue with these guys? By their own admission, some of them aren't even old enough to enter a casino -- and the level of rhetoric makes me wonder if some are even old enough to drive. Yet they have volumes to say (to live game specialists, no less) about live play and live players . . . based on what?

If they don't want to listen to you, then that's fine. Seriously, what do you care? It's their loss at the end of the day.

This all became apparent to me when I came over the top of their bluff and posted an honest response to their call for a hand analysis. I kept asking for them to call, and reply to my thoughts, but they folded. They had air.

You can't win an argument with someone who refuses to concede any point you make. You can own every reasonable high ground, rebut every point, but a clown is just going to honk their horn, change the subject, and try to get a laugh.

Their two main arguments have been crushed. Online posts are always superior to live posts -- proven false by the posting and dissection of a basic online post. Live players don't make serious money -- proven false by links to threads containing the testimony of many live pros at 5/10NL+ making 10 big blinds/hour (compared with past posts and regular tableratings.com outings of online rakeback and fpp "pros.") What else is there?

Everything else past this point is just more horn honking, and frankly has been for awhile. Dude, seriously, just walk away. You even being in this thread lends it a legitimacy that it does not deserve.