Game has been very loose... i just showed a big bluff and i pick up JJ($1900) utg +1

straddled to me... i make it 100 expecting some action

5 people to the flop

villain1($2200) in utg+2 plays very loose preflop and is a bit of a calling station


villain 2($1200) is in late position same as player 1 pretty much


flop rainbow 467

i make it 300 .. villains 1and2 call

turn A putting a flush draw out there

my action?



58 suited is definately in villain 2's range... probably not player villain one because of his early position and nobody else in the pot yet preflop... but wouldn't be totally shocked

89 suited is definately in both their ranges

USUALLY I JUST LIMP IN W JACKS FROM EARLY POSITION IN SUCH A DEEPSTACKED LOOSE PREFLOP GAME TO AVOID SITUATIONS LIKE THIS

Tough spot. How often do you think either villian floats the flop with AK/AQ?. With 2 villians in I'm probably shutting it down at this point.

don't see much reason to bet again. would check it through and probably call a bet from a safe river, or vbet small myself if checked to.

altho i was scared at the time... neither villain would have floated with ak/aq

a5 and a7 are both definately possible tho

If you check the turn, will you fold to a bet? I don't know why you are assuming you're behind on the turn.

The fact that their range is broad makes it more likely that you do, in fact, have the best hand.

I would rather bet and fold to a reraise then check and have no information.

There is $1400+ in the pot, and you have only $1500 left.

In this spot, I like a shove. You're out of position on a draw heavy board against two maniacs. It's close, but I think you have to ship it in.

This is an awful situation that typically warrants either a push or a check. If stacks were deeper, you could throw out another feeler bet, but with any bet in this situation you essentially commit yourself to the pot.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure that a push is the best course of action. Sure the players may not be in there with quality, but is it worth losing $1,900 in a marginal spot with Jacks?

I think that a check is in order, possibly another $300 bet for info. I think you take the chance that the calling station and the other player will check behind. You are OOP, against players that could hold anything, ranging from bottom pair/str draw to two pair, and even just two overs and an OESD. You will be clueless as to whether your hand is best if a 3,4,5,6,7, or 8 falls.

If you are completely clueless as to what they hold, I think I check, hope to show down the hand, or bluff catch on the river. If you are beat, you are crushed in all likelihood. Hope for a good card on the river to make a call if you have to. If someone bets huge at the turn, I'd let it go. It's just too marginal of a situation to get involved deeply in. Wait for a better opportunity in position to exploit these players.

Would either of your opponents ever think you would check a big A here?
Would either of your opponents ever use the A to bluff at themselves?

not sure

villain 1 yes... villain 2 no

i've thought about it more and agree with clorox...i originally thought about shoving and i got wrongully scared by the ace, costly mistake

i ended up checking villain 1 bets 500 villain 2 calls and i fold (assuming a checked turn, thoughts on my fold?)

river is a blank and it goes check check

villain 1 has a pair of fives villain 2 has 78suited (i unfortunately can't remember if it was the same suite as the board or not, i wanna say it wasn't)

This is the reason that I hate overpairs on boards like 467 rainbow. Most of the draws that you are facing will have 8-13 outs against you (let's average it as 10 outs), so you are not a big favorite to win by the river.

With that said, you have to come up with a plan on the flop for how strong that you want to play the hand. If you are comfortable with playing for stacks with JJ here because you think that Villains might stack off with worse, then I would definitely make a plan here of bet flop and shove a blank turn.

Nevertheless, I think it is important to put your opponents on a range of hands that they would call a good-sized flop bet. In this situation, I would put my opponents on the following range if they only smooth call my flop bet:

54s, 52s, 55, 65s, 75s, A5s, 42s, 43s, 86s, 87s, 98s, T7s, A7s, 88-TT (draws/weak pairs/weak overpairs)
76s, 64s, 74s, 85s, 53s, 44, 66, 77 (slowplayed monsters)

Of course, I would only expect a Villain to slowplay a set or 2pair on the rainbow flop sometimes (often, a reasonable Villain with 2pair/set would checkraise or lead the flop because he correctly fears a straight draw). So, I would discount some of the 2pair/set combos in this range.

So, let's say that you decided to stack off with JJ here on the flop as long as a safe card hits the turn. I would recommend betting $375-$400 on the rainbow flop because there are so combo draws that have 8-13 outs against JJ here. That create a $1625-$1700 pot on the turn, leaving behind around $1400 for a less than pot-sized turn shove if a brick hits the turn. If a scare card hits the turn, I would shut down and get to showdown cheaply.

Now let's consider what turn cards are safe for us and what turn cards are bad for us:

scare cards: any 3,5,6,7, or 8
neutral cards: any 4 or A (completes bottom pair or A5s/A7s)
brick cards: any 2,9,T,J,Q,K (T might complete 89s nut OESD, but that's pretty much it)

When the Ace hits the turn, I would generally consider that to be a neutral turn card that is unlikely to hit most of the Villains' ranges. Only A5s or A7s will have improved when the Ace hits the turn; therefore, if we had the best hand on the flop, then we still should have the best hand on the turn. On the other hand, if either Villain has A5s or A7s, then we will be drawing to only 2 outs after the turn. Given that the pot is so big at this point, and that 1 or both Villains probably have combo draws, I would shove turn even on an Ace.

Summary: First, you should act yourself whether you want to play for stacks with JJ here. If you think that you want to play for stacks, then the best plan would be betting $375-$400 on the flop (because so many draws have 10-13 outs) and then shoving turn on any non-scare card.

great post... thank you

i was overly scared of the ace... i'm not sure why