This hand is really strange. He was aggressive pre and then went passive OTF and OTT. It got checked through OTF, then he checked OTT which risks getting it checked through again since only one is left to act, then raised? This convinces me he either does not have a piece of the board or has everything (A6). Or maybe he just has a non-coherent train of thought.

In this sense, it is an inferred WA/WB situation, even though the board and your hand would lead you to think otherwise. Def not a classic WA/WB situation. I would call the raise OTT and then call any river.

As for prior streets, I think you should have bet the flop. Your action in this hand will come from PP that don't believe you have an A, other A, and draws. Checking doesn't really do much, other than let someone outdraw you or maybe get someone involved if a K or Q happens to come out giving someone 2p (12% chance). The stage is already set for action.

EDIT:

To answer one of your questions, I think you can get a flop call, turn checked through, and river call from a PP.

What is your value range and bluff/ semibluff range in spots like this? If not for value, for the sake of balance and image bet this flop.

Pf flat is fine, checking flop is awful. If somebody has another ace they will give you action. If somebody doesn't have another ace they will only give you action if they boat up. Disguise the strength of your hand by betting. Call the chr and see a river.

I bet the flop.

Flush draws probably aren't a large part of each villain's range, but they are some part of it, so let's charge them. Plus if a heart falls on the turn, all our action (plus desire to give action) might be killed (i.e. so much for that plan of getting 1/2 streets of action on later streets).

Agreed that we'll probably be able to still get stacks in vs Ax hands, but sometimes you never know (might just get called down "just in case you have it").

One of the things that it comes down to for me is that all of us are unknown (therefore it is my belief that we'll get called down a lot lighter), plus the flop has been checked to us (everyone is going to bluff this, right?), plus the thinking that with two Aces on the flop it is unlikely we have one. I agree that checking the flop probably gets us 2 streets of value from underpairs (barring the flush draw coming in); but being unknown, and being checked to, I think gets us 3 streets of value more than we think. And that third street of value is massive value, too much to potentially miss out on, IMO.

Their is no argument "Bet Flop" to define his range/charge middle pocket pairs.

If you ask me today, villain was going for the donk c/r wit 66/A6, or he checked and caught a boat ott with pocket 8s.

I doubt the guy has AQ/AK and he is not as tight as you think.

We need some physical tells. What did his chipstack look like?

Was he shuffling chips?

What was betting motion, did he slide the raise in sloppy/did he count out his raise behind the line then slide across?

You have a very detailed op but it really has no real reads on villain.

I want to assign 1010+,AKAQ. That range has to be wider. When I first thought about the hand, I said "easy shove". But then I thought about it. I was not there. You have to range better op.

preflop is fine
on the flop i'd most likely to bet myself, reason why we're in position, paired flop, ppl c our bet as attemp to steal in late position on dry flop (which i do a lot)
as played, never fold turn, question is to 3bet or flat.... personally i'd like to 3bet to get him committed on turn

Preflop is fine, like all others said.

The flop is just inexcusable imo. We may get calls from 77-KK that may fold to a bunch of turn cards that will be scare cards. We are losing value by not betting and I don't see how there is anyway that that statement isn't true.

We are ahead here most of the time and AJs+/AQo+ easily fit his range and we crush that range. I'd get it in wherever I can, but not betting the flop is losing money imo.

I would bet flop because you are way underrepped and villain is calling with his entire range except KQ. The more history/analysis you get later on could lead to a different line, but as of now all you know is that villain has a lot of pp in his range that aren't folding the flop. You can always check turn and bomb river and this makes your hand look < AK as opposed to check flop bet turn bomb river. I'd prolly just bet bet bet and let villain figure out why he wants to pay off. As played shove turn.

So true. We have one of the top starting hands, what is our plan for how we are going to extra value from it, particularly if we miss flop. Is tight pre-flop player suddenly going to become loose on the flop and put stack in with crappy TP? If I had good reads on player, then deception line might be more profitable, but we don't know enough about his range here to make that work. I 3b this all day--even if he folds, you're creating image as an aggresive player that he is going to want to look up at some point, and you're getting to better spots where you are against looser players faster.

On flop, you have to charge flush draw, particularly against 2 players. If he puts you on an A and doesn't have one himself, it's not going matter which street you bet on, he's folding, so just do it now before his hand improves (cause it can only likely improve to a flush or boat). If he decides you don't have A and calls with his 10s, you definitely get value on river.

What I can't decide is whether your bet sizing is optimal, either as a flop or turn bet. I'm sure the forum is going to jump all over me for this, but I mostly play in touristy places where 1/2 pot gets the job done a lot of times. If you're worried about tight player folding, $20 ought to do the trick and still charge the draw. And if you think on the turn that you are WA/WB, I like putting in a little less so that we have a smaller SPR if we get 3B--just gives more room to manuever.

Good point about the bet-check-bet line likely getting at least as much value from 2nd pair as check-bet-bet. Its a better line as someone pointed out (I think Tao) because that way I can get at least one sure street before a scare card comes.

I think you guys made good points, and I am becoming convinced that I should have bet the flop, especially 3-way, but even heads up. Thank you for the feedback.

From some of you I hear things like 'call turn' or 'call turn and reevaluate '. That's way too vague - if you think that as played I should call turn rather than raise, then what is the plan for the river on different cards?

Pre flop is fine.

Betting flop really is image dependent. I take stabs at a lot of boards,so people tend to call me down lighter, and thus i would bet the flop 2/3, bet non-heart turns, and bet any river if checked to again.

As played villain has a wide range imo.. tight pre but wide in this spot because i think he will turn his big pp into bluffs here given that it looks like we're trying to steal after being checked to otb twice. Id say his range is

[66, 88, 99-kk, jthh+, a10-ak].

Its not impossible that he shows up with a boat here. Shoving turn seems like a leak as he'll only call if he has Ax or a boat.

I tank call turn and snap off his river lead.

Why would he turn his pp into bluffs if he thinks we are stealing?

Dont know the rationale. But in my experience villains will do it. I guess they "didnt put us on an ace" or "its either ak or nothin". I see/hear a lot of things everyday that confound me.

Our hand is essentially the nuts. Calling turn keeps villains range as wide as possible.

Results?

Results:

Hooray for results oriented reinforcement lol

Not too worried about this hand, as it's an exceptional circumstance (both raising this wide preflop and hitting flop in a dream scenario)
However, in terms of generality, I think the take home message is:

** Most villains whose range includes PPs will float a flop bet from you (if it can be interpreted as a stab/steal attempt. Thus, flop bet does not fold as much as we might have thought it would. ACTUALLY, my default play is to assume villains float alot more than they should (with medium strength hands) until proven otherwise

Late to the dance, have only read the OP.

1. What do we think UTG's range is?
PF I would range him @ 77+, KQ+. Post-flop I’d say big hearts, 99-.

2. Are we committed?
Based on the line, I can’t see an Ax checking twice, missing value, and not charging a FD. Yes we are committed. The V could be trying to make a play w/99, 77 thinking the 8 was of no help. 88 and 66 are possible but remote imo. FHs are difficult to flop; 88 likely calling to give a chance for the FD to hit OTR.

3. What is the optimal line if we are committed for turn and/or turn/river?
I think we call which will allow a bluff attempt OTR. A raise would fold most non-Ax hands so we lose an opportunity to gain incremental value OTR.

4. Thoughts on my rationale on prior streets and reasons why you would play it differently if you disagree.
Given little history with opponent and deepness, I understand the flat pre. I’d lead OTF hoping to get value from a lesser Ace while charging for the FD. Yes, it may turn our hand (Ax) face-up, however this is multi-way and we are facing an opponent who does not have our image pegged precisely.

i have no problem with the way the hand was played as long as you b/3bai on the turn.

however id likely bet the flop here to charge any FD's that might be in his range, or to protect against action killer turns. i def think that is a better play ITLR

id rather value bet then bluff induce. checking would be better on a rainbow board

Incidentally, here are some turn equities. It's a lot closer than I thought when I was in the hand, so not nearly as a good of a commit:

Against a tight PF range:

Board: Ah Ad 6h 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.769% 26.03% 16.74% 126 81.00 { 88, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 57.231% 40.50% 16.74% 196 81.00 { AsKs }

Against a slightly looser range:

Board: Ah Ad 6h 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.623% 38.47% 13.15% 237 81.00 { 88, 66, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 48.377% 35.23% 13.15% 217 81.00 { AsKs }

Finally, against the loosest possible preflop range (this is meant to be the range he calls a shove with, which is a subset of that):

Board: Ah Ad 6h 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.158% 35.39% 10.77% 327 99.50 { 88, 66, A8s+, A6s, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 53.842% 43.07% 10.77% 398 99.50 { AsKs }

I think this hand helps to prove that checkraises on the turn or river usually indicate extreme strength... As I said earlier itt, I'm usually going to call it off or shove over the turn cr as well. But this might actually be a little bit of a leak when so many players would never take a line like this without a boat, especially given the flush draw possibility.

there are a lot of players who take this line with AQ AJ A10, because they try and "trap" a bunch. obv this is the less skilled players but many people do slowplay every time they have trips, esp trip aces

If villain seems to know what he's doing I dunno If I'm very happy about getting c/r ott.
Not many players have it in them to spazz on AAx board in MW pots.
It seems like you're really only beating AJ AQ.

When I'm in your spot Idk if I can find a fold though. Probably doing same thing haha.