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Laying down queens Laying down queens

02-21-2011 , 01:48 PM
Villain is a rock. Will occasionally bluff but usually plays a straightforward game. Have never seen villain go all in without a made hand or even make a significant raise without one. There's a first time for everything, though, and villain earlier mentioned having to get going "soon" because he has to work early in the AM.

$1/$2 blinds

SB ($84)
BB ($161)
UTG ($44)
CO/Villain ($107)
BTN/Hero ($120)

Hero holds QQ

UTG limps for $2, CO/villain raises to $15, Hero raises to $35, fold, fold, UTG all in for $7 more, villain shoves for $92. Hero??? I feel like Hero lays the queens down here but I want to make sure.

Last edited by Namath12; 02-21-2011 at 02:04 PM.
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02-21-2011 , 01:50 PM
Looking at stack sizes that looks like a dreamy table. Which site is this?

For 50BB I get it in here every time.
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02-21-2011 , 02:11 PM
lol, easy call with 100bb stacks, and with 60bb this an absolute no brainer.
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02-21-2011 , 02:25 PM
Think before you 3bet....
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02-21-2011 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neok
Think before you 3bet....
I thought that flat calling might have been more appropriate. UTG is an old man who usually goes all in with most any hand when he's ready to go home. He would have probably raised all in whether hero had called or raised. Villian was probably going to raise or shove no matter what.

I guess what I'm acknowledging is that flat would have probably been the better play, but on this hand it likely wouldn't have mattered as hero is probably facing a big reraise or shove from villain no matter what.
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02-21-2011 , 06:05 PM
If you suspect UTG is very likely to shove then you should certainly flat but its pretty hard to go wrong in this hand,
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02-21-2011 , 06:50 PM
the real question here is,

If villain is getting ready to leave for work and villain is down to 50BB, what is villain's shoving range???

I would guess that villain's shoving range is: AQ, AK, 88-AA.

Against this range, its a snap call.

However, if you feel villain's range in this situation is: AK, JJ-AA

then you can fold.

I'd be more inclined to lower villain's shoving range since he is at 50BB.

Incidentally, this is sorta the problem when you are playing on the shorter side of things. The whole table is at 60BB or less which will impact your reading ability.

Typically, the shorter the stacks, the wider the shoving ranges.
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02-21-2011 , 06:50 PM
1) villain is stuck
2) villain is ready to go home
3) villain has already announced he's ready to go home

Villain is shipping a lot wider than AA and KK here.

Call.
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02-21-2011 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibelieveinkolb
1) villain is stuck
2) villain is ready to go home
3) villain has already announced he's ready to go home

Villain is shipping a lot wider than AA and KK here.

Call.
also villian wants to isolate the short stack. A lot of folks make this move with any PP. as said, not even close to a fold.
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02-21-2011 , 08:23 PM
call, but yea, decide before you 3 bet. It makes life much easier, as well as puts you on a different level than all the dildos that 3 bet, then start scratching their head when they get shoved on.
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02-21-2011 , 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashington
Villain is a rock. Will occasionally bluff but usually plays a straightforward game. Have never seen villain go all in without a made hand or even make a significant raise without one. There's a first time for everything, though, and villain earlier mentioned having to get going "soon" because he has to work early in the AM.

$1/$2 blinds

SB ($84)
BB ($161)
UTG ($44)
CO/Villain ($107)
BTN/Hero ($120)

Hero holds QQ

UTG limps for $2, CO/villain raises to $15, Hero raises to $35, fold, fold, UTG all in for $7 more, villain shoves for $92. Hero??? I feel like Hero lays the queens down here but I want to make sure.
The short stack is an advantage on this hand. You cant lay it down. Even if his range was only AK(16) AA (6)and KK.(6) JJ(6)
your are about even $ against 16 hands, 4-1 dog against AA KK and 4-1 fav against JJ. Given the dead $ in the pot and the fact that his range is likely wider than described, I think it is a mandatory call.

If he was lucky enough to have AA KK so be it. Cant do anything about it short stacked.
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02-21-2011 , 08:51 PM
If his range is QQ+, AKs, then it is a fold. However, anything looser and it is an instant call. At 50bb, it is almost always wider, so call.
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02-21-2011 , 09:02 PM
Grunch:

Quote:
villain earlier mentioned having to get going "soon" because he has to work early in the AM.
+

Quote:
$1/$2 blinds
+

Quote:
CO/Villain ($107)
+

Quote:
Hero holds QQ
+

Quote:
Hero raises to $35
+

Pokerstove

= +EV CALL.

------------------------------------------------------------

If both you and villain have $200+ (100BB+) It would be best to call his $15 raise rather than 3bet.
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02-21-2011 , 09:50 PM
You can't possibly fold QQ preflop for a total bet of $107 in 1/2 NL when you already have $35 invested (and the pot has an additional $44 in it from a third party). Sorry he had AA or KK.

Is there still a rule in Florida restricting buy in's to $100? If there is, I guess you have no choice but to play under these circumstances, but if there isn't, never stay at a table like this. Those stack sizes are horrifying. There's slightly more than $500 on the table.
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02-22-2011 , 12:06 AM
snap call imo. Never lay down QQ at 1/2 unless you have a soul read or are mega deep AND have a soul read. As a whole, players ranges in this spot include 88+, AQ+, and they are thinking that they can force you to lay down a hand (like you did, or considered) or "race" in which they will blame bad luck when they lose. QQ is +EV at 1/2 a large percentage of the time. Just be glad you had him covered by enough to buy yourself a beer.
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02-22-2011 , 12:22 AM
Why is everyone so short? is this a 2-40 spread game or something?
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02-22-2011 , 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
If his range is QQ+, AKs, then it is a fold. However, anything looser and it is an instant call. At 50bb, it is almost always wider, so call.
When I did a pokerstove calc of QQ vs AA KK JJ AK, the queens had 47% equity, did I do the this incorrectly?
If not seems like this is an autocall even for more than the 50bb I had thought at first. I was surprised by the equity and I know I have made this mistake before. Hopefully leak plugged.
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02-22-2011 , 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by petzlgrigri
When I did a pokerstove calc of QQ vs AA KK JJ AK, the queens had 47% equity, did I do the this incorrectly?
If not seems like this is an autocall even for more than the 50bb I had thought at first. I was surprised by the equity and I know I have made this mistake before. Hopefully leak plugged.
Did you use AK instead of AKs? Venice specified JJ+ and AKs
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02-22-2011 , 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb
Is there still a rule in Florida restricting buy in's to $100? If there is, I guess you have no choice but to play under these circumstances, but if there isn't, never stay at a table like this. Those stack sizes are horrifying. There's slightly more than $500 on the table.
The law was changed last yr, but judging from stack sizes it might be Tampa Hard Rock, which has a $100 1/2 and a $300 1/3. The game plays smaller because of the low limit (people often buy in for $60) but the play is bad.
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02-22-2011 , 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEPpoker
Did you use AK instead of AKs? Venice specified JJ+ and AKs
I used KK+, JJ, AKs, AKo,
47-52
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02-22-2011 , 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by petzlgrigri
I used KK+, JJ, AKs, AKo,
47-52
I was mucking around with this earlier and if you give UTG an ace it looks like this

Hand 0: 41.355% { QdQh }
Hand 1: 38.392% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 20.254% { A7s }

I thought it was pretty cool but maybe I'm turnng into a pokerstove nerd
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02-22-2011 , 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarnhouse
snap call imo. Never lay down QQ at 1/2 unless you have a soul read or are mega deep AND have a soul read.
What is mega deep? So many of the fishies will not shove pre without AA/KK. Laying down QQ to preflop 4-bets vs. the typical loose passives 100bb deep is never a bad decision IMO. However in this hand, villains range is opened up, and we are priced in nicely given the stacks. Call.
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02-22-2011 , 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
What is mega deep? So many of the fishies will not shove pre without AA/KK. Laying down QQ to preflop 4-bets vs. the typical loose passives 100bb deep is never a bad decision IMO. However in this hand, villains range is opened up, and we are priced in nicely given the stacks. Call.
agree
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02-23-2011 , 12:26 PM
Thanks for the candid responses guys. I learned a lot from this thread.
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02-23-2011 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TikiStyles
Why is everyone so short? is this a 2-40 spread game or something?
Strange house rules, actually. This is a home game. House rules stipulate both min and max buy-in of 50bb. Players can rebuy if they drop below 50bb to get back to 50bb. They can have as much on the table as they have won without limitations but can't initially buy in for more than 50bb.

It makes even less sense to me now that I've typed it all out, but that's how it works.
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