Playing 1/3, $300 max, sitting around $450. Hero has a TAG image, but card dead the last hour or so. V1 is a local reg 2/5 player, playing 1/3 waiting for a 2/5 seat. Definitely thinks hes better then he is, and trying to run over the table while "slumming it," but also luckboxd into a lot of chips from bad tourists. V2 is a young white kid who came from a broken table with $600ish, has only been here a few hands. Both V's cover.

Anyway, hero wakes up with 2 red Kings in the SB. V2 UTG raises to $40, folds around to me, raise to $140. V1 in BB tanks for 3 mins then shoves for $700, V2 SNAP calls, 100BB for hero to call.

Might be obvious for the more seasoned players, but Im newer and wanted to see what better then me people would do here.

Call

If one of them has Aces.. oh well. you got your money in good.

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What do you think most players' 4 bet shove calling range is? My rule of thumb is that I never fold kings unless I'm sure I'm up against aces pf.

I fold. But whatever you do, don't show your hand.

I mean, given the action I'm not loving it, but I'm never folding here. You only need 22% equity to call, and even if one of them shows you aces you have at least 15%. Given V1 description, it seems like his range is wider than average for his cold 4-bet shove. Maybe JJ+,AKs. If we put V2 on QQ+, we have an easy call with almost 32% equity. If it's KK+, we have a marginal fold, so I don't hate a fold here. But I wouldn't do it in game.

I probably would have went slightly smaller preflop. Even a 3x sizing of $120 offers very poor 6:1 IO so we could even get away with less than that; we do want action, especially with no other dead money in the pot.

I've only folded KK preflop 3 times. I would *consider* doing that for a 4th time here.

Gtoughspot,imoG

Folding here is lower EV than running into A’s shrug and throw in a chip. Probably against AK and JJ.

I would consider folding, but I don't think I could ever do it in game vs. these guys. Do you get any vibe from V2? Regardless, I can't fold.

If we're up against AA and JJ, calling loses us about $60. Folding is way better than calling if we know someone has AA.

ETA: Even more of a disaster if we're up against AA and AK (a very possible combination given this action), where we're losing $165 with a call.

GcluelessmathsnoobG

V2 who shoved is the $2-5 player so feel good we're ahead of him
no read on V1 who snap calls

I'm not liking it but I'm calling

Who snap calls AA with a player left to act? Like that’s level 99 psych play.

Don’t ever fold kings after a bad cocky reg raises to 13.33 bb on 150 bb effective. I’m sure you’ll find edge cases where it’s correct, but following the first sentence will get you like 95% of the way there


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Is there a straddle?
I’m not too worried about V1 given description. V2 can easily snap with QQ so I’m not folding. I’ve folded KK maybe a dozen times lifetime and that’s only vs players I had history with

The timing and bet sizing (if you put any stock in those at all) make me slightly less worried that either has AA, so I’m reluctantly calling. Is V1 tanking for minutes before shipping AA? Normally you see people go smaller with AA (to an amount that still commits them), and while some amount of fake tanking is normal, 3 minutes seems excessive. And is the other player really snap calling AA with you left to act? Very unlikely unless (as jdr suggested) you think he’s operating 5 levels above the rest of us.

If you know someone has A’s then what is this thread for? No reason at all to think this is AA and AA only. Shove chips into pot, live with results. Spend time worrying about more important money making concepts than should I fold K’s preflop. We’re 150 bb’s with K’s FFS....

I mean, he’s pretty clearly responding to the specific statement “Folding here is lower EV than running into A’s”, which in this case is pretty clearly not true (right?)

Lol, good read, nice fold.

I said I’m calling. But “Folding here is lower EV than running into A’s” is clearly not a true statement.

Yeah, this is the statement I'm obviously addressing, as the way it is written suggests that calling is EV even when we run into AA thanks to the dead money. Although it is possible he meant something more along the lines of "Folding here is lower EV even when you factor that some of the time we'll run into AA", which of course can be argued.

GcluelessNLnoobG

It's funny, I actually wrote up a response very similar regarding V1's tanking as I was also confused by this and it really doesn't point to AA. But then it dawned on me: it could actually be a legitimate tank with him wondering what to do with AA (i.e. would it be better for him to flat or reraise). V1 is obviously trying to push the table around but I'm guessing he is smart enough to know his push-around equity is zero when a guy who hasn't played a hand in an hour 3bets an UTG open for 1/3rd his stack. Even shoving AK here to blow out UTG and thus go to the bad side of a flip (or perhaps much worse) with almost no UTG dead money is meh.

Still, not saying I'm good/bad enough to actually bring myself to fold here. Would probably need that real at-the-table feel to make a decision.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm actually concerned that V2 has AA. He's a young player who just moved to the table and all we know about him is he has a big stack. A raise to $40 UTG could very easily be him trying to avoid having to play this hand multiway OOP. He has a big stack and is bloating the pot so that he never has to make a hard decision on the flop.

Then he snap calls the 4-bet. This could be inexperience. He got exactly what he wanted, to be all-in pre-flop with AA, and now he either doesn't care whether hero calls or not. Or he figures that no matter what he does his hand is face up as AA so hero's decision isn't going to be affected by whether he Hollywoods.

In a live 1/3 game? lol i've seen people shove call this with AJ. I never fold here.

debating whether or not to fold KK here will have zero effect on your winrates guys

This is true.

But the same can be said about a lotta things. Limp/calling 72o UTG once in a blue moon (or even as much as once a session) ain't likely to make a discernable difference long term either.

So we're still allowed to debate whether the play at hand is obviously good versus obviously bad versus somewhere in-between. OP is likely trying to get a feel for where it falls cuz it may not be obvious to him (and it probably falls under "it's close").

GcluelessNLnoobG

generally speaking its a call all day, even though we're not loving the spot. You should be ahead of V1's range here, since he's the 2/5 player and may be 4b shoving with a wider range. I would think anywhere from 10's+ and maybe even as low as AQ/AJo, maybe even some suited wheel aces. The snap call from V2 is concerning, but for 150bb at these stakes, getting 3:1, KK is still a call.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Outcome;
The V1 tank/shove wasen't much worry for me, it was the V2 snap call for a 200bb stack was the only thing that worried me. I've only played live for 200ish hours now, but at 1/3 I've never seen anyone call a shove like that except maniacs and drunks, and I didn't have enough info on V2 to put him into either category. I wound up sigh folding to V1's AK suited and V2's aces.

Thanks for the feedback!