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KK Flop Min-Raise KK Flop Min-Raise

01-01-2015 , 03:21 PM
1/3 game on New Year's eve, just moved tables. I came in UTG (didn't have to post) and the main hand is from BB. I'll post the first for image:

Hand 1

Hero raises UTG to 11
MP calls
BB calls

Flop: A A Q

BB checks
Hero bets 16
MP folds
BB folds

Hand 2

The main villain is LP (not involved in the first hand). Never seen him before. Mid 60's white male in a dress shirt. Has his chips in stacks of $50 instead of stacks of $100. Other than that, no reads.

UTG+1 limps
MP limps
LP limps
Button limps
SB completes
Hero raises to 18 with KK (sizing? Should this be 20+?)
UTG+1 calls
MP folds
LP calls
Button calls
SB folds

Flop: Q T 4 (Pot 70 after rake)

Hero bets 45
Folds to LP, who make it 100
Button folds

Hero ???

LP has 150 behind, Hero covers. Comments on all streets welcome.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 03:32 PM
Bigger pre is better.

Given stack sizes it's an easy shove. QQ and TT are unlikely due to pre. 44 and QT quite possible, but readless he can have overplayed Qx and draws as well.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matzah_ball
Bigger pre is better.

Given stack sizes it's an easy shove. QQ and TT are unlikely due to pre. 44 and QT quite possible, but readless he can have overplayed Qx and draws as well.
Huh dunno about that. What Qx is he limp calling with that raises this flop and that we beat? It could be a raise "to see where he's at" so I deny him information and call. I could even find a fold here given this is rarely draws and if it is it is likely the T a lot because of the V behind. Only draws I can see him playing this way you flip agaisnt... TJhh T9hh T8hh, AThh probably just calls OTF.

I like calling but have no plan OTT? What do we do if a brick comes and he fires again? Then I call, what if a comes and he fires? Do we call? I really hate playing vs unknown. What if the Js comes and he fires? I want dgi to post in this thread :P
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 04:52 PM
Villain is raising because he thinks he has the best hand. If he has worse it's unlikely he can fold when we shove. I prefer a shove as there are a lot of scare cards that could hit the turn and I believe we are ahead of his range.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 04:55 PM
Larger pre, like 25 or so. Bet folding is usually my line in spots like this. Read less this is tough. The villans chip stacks is relavent. I'd peg him as a weak Recreational player. Is he older? Does he seem tight? His min raise is a please call me bet. I think this line is super strong multi way and is usually going to be 2pair+. Honestly is kind of a sigh fold since we have kind of an awkward SPR of 4(stack to pot ratio).

Unknowns usually are going to call with Qx and 10x hands as well as draws. When they min raise it is usually cuz they don't want you to fold. We can just make a comment like stupid AK I hate that hand.

Edit: give me a realistic range we are ahead of that a rec player min raises and I could lean towards shoving. Preferably from OP.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 05:05 PM
I stoved AQs AQoff, 1010, 44 Q10s and off suit and threw in A10hh AJhh but we have the K of hearts and the Q of hearts is on the board. With that range we are even money and its a call. If we remove AQ from his range we have 29% equity. I believe its a fold. Again I think the typical rec player doesn't raise in a multi way pot with just 1 pair. I'd have to be given more info to believe otherwise.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 05:40 PM
Seems like a raise-or-fold situation to me. Calling will leave us with a $270 pot and effective stacks of $150 on the turn. And I can only find a fold on the turn if another Q hits the board. Otherwise it's generally a blank (WA/WB) or gives us a backdoor draw to the 2nd nut flush. All of those options suck.

We're readless except for the $50 stacking issue, which I agree is noteworthy. But it can be noteworthy in a lot of different directions. Villain thinks he has the stronger hand here, but I have no idea how strong that hand needs to be for him to think that.

I would just jam here. Only hands that I fear are Q10 and 44. I'd need a lot more information on the villain's raising tendencies before I could open-fold an overpair on the flop with a pretty wet board.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-01-2015 , 10:13 PM
I agree in that its raise (shove) or fold.

I guess it just depends on your read on that Villian. Mid 60's white guy? Aggressive or pretty passive?

I think its 50 50, I doubt he has a draw if hes passive. If so, Q10 or 44 maybe TT all possible.

Does he do with with AQ? KQ? QJ?

Pretty tough, borderline decision, but for me it, now its 100 percent based on my read of Villian.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-02-2015 , 11:20 AM
I don't think I can fold here, so it's shove or call. I've seen players do this with AQ, KQ (less likely), or something like J9hh. I would only call with the intention of gii on any turn besides a Q, so probably just shove. The only hands that worry me are QT and 44.

I think you kind of need a table read to figure this one out. If he seems really strong, just fold (but NEVER show).

I would definitely raise more pre.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-02-2015 , 12:39 PM
A little more PF since:
1) You are new and just raised the hand before also ...
2) You are OOP and need to weed out hands like QTs who call due to 'waterfall' effect

That raise is probably fine ($15 into $18) once you know the table a bit more, but being OOP you need to make um pay more since you don't have an image yet.

My first thoughts are TT/AQ/flush draw/44/maybe QT due to late position ... V probably not limping with QQ ... with a real leaning towards a set.

It's a cheap call to pick up backdoor flush or 'money' card and then check Turn to see what happens. He will tell you what he has, especially if a flush card hits. So you have 25% or so of the deck to call $55 into $215 with. It may check through to showdown. GL
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-02-2015 , 01:11 PM
i was about to post "fold"

but this is new year's eve, when total recs come to the casino that don't know what relative hand strength means.....

readless i probably shove on this day & fold the other 364 days
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-02-2015 , 01:35 PM
Shovel it in.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-02-2015 , 03:35 PM
I agree that raising more pre is better...I would go $24.
I think a shove on the flop is find or even a call as I don't see how op is getting away from this hand.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-02-2015 , 07:31 PM
Raise to 155
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-03-2015 , 03:39 AM
I'm getting it in readless. Also raise bigger pre to around $25 or so.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote
01-03-2015 , 10:28 AM
All-in.

A 6X raise from the BB is too small, especially with all the limpers. 8X is much better.
KK Flop Min-Raise Quote

      
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