I see KJ+ taking such line all the time.

Don't believe me? Interview a donkey next time and see what he would do with KJ and AJ in this spot.

Well i made what i think is likely the worst play. I shoved , she hemmed and hawwed and ended up mucking , said she folded AJ.

My first instinct was to call or fold. Than i convinced myself she is never going to fold TPGK after raising that amount , but that there will be quite a few goofy turns that will either put her ahead , or more importantly that will scare her into not wanting to put any more $ in the pot if i just flat (A/K/Q/J) , or even if there is a blank i was afraid she may just check turn back with TPGK.

Flat - Donk turn line never even came into my head until hours after the hand was over and i was thinking of alternate lines.

I see > KK do it all the time. We are at such a cross roads.

I kind of convinced myself her range is basically TPGK or 56 and that a set would never play like this and that she's never going to r/f here.

I agree with whoever said the standard live line for a set on this flop would be flat flop , raise turn (esp with a player to act).

I think if your in a levelling war with a reg than raising this flop with a set is pretty cool because you rep so little ldo and who raises a set here etc but that isn't really relevant to this hand.

Yeah i usually go about what you suggest but have been experimenting with bigger flop bets , mostly on dry 1 paint flops. I guess my reasoning is I can pot stick them/get max value out of Jx , but than again I'm prob also effecting the %% they continue with 77-1010 by doing this. Prob better for Axx/Kxx boards. Obv I'm referring to value hands and vs non observant recreational players who will not exploit my bet sizing tells , since I'd go super small on a Axx dry board as a bluff.

Yeah jamming here is just awful.

If you are going to continue, call then ch/r the turn is the best.

Bart Hanson in a recent pod cast was talking about how 150xbb is the most awkward and difficult stack size to play and this hand is a perfect example of why.

your average tight player is not raising KJ here.

I guess we won't agree.

I have seen plenty of what i would consider on the tighter side preflop and overall tighter side in general re-raise TP hands on dry boards and just overplay hands overall . Actually this other female that is i see regularaly at the same casino fits that bill and will re-raise A10 on Axx multiway , get JJ/QQ AIPF 100-125bb deep , but has tight pfr standards and isn't bluffy but just overvalues TP hands. I kind of used the read i have on said female to influence how i played this hand but clearly if I'm narrowing her continuing range to 2pr+ my shove is terrible.

Maybe our definition of middle aged women is just different.

I could of better described her as a good looking middle aged women , likely high maintaince given her attire/jewerly all dolled up. The other female reg i mention falls into same catagory and also quite a few black middle age good looking women. Passive with draws but overplays TP+ , generally tighter standards but also overplays preflop... Not old lady who limps aces and just c/calls c/calls and only re pops with nuts.

Maybe not a jam but at least a bet. The assumption when you flat the flop is that shes going to fire turn if you check, which she will probably 95.5% of the time, especially with no indication her hand is not good.

If she does check it back, who cares? we know were good and value the river hard. Maybe we miss her stack OTF but maybe she doesnt call a shove.



The flop "unsure cut for a call then raise" move is either indicitive a strong hand that thought about slowplaying by flatting, or weaker hands than ours hands she thinks are good worth a raise. There is not enough evidence that her hand is better than ours at this point, and its not unlikely that we have the best hand which makes folding here wrong (not to mention ULTRA NITTY)

I see no reason to shove the flop. Maybe someone can comment on this if they think otherwise. call>fold>shove


No it doesn't, shes still got $200 behind. Just because she put in 1/3 of her stack doesnt mean she has to put the rest in.


Absolutley 100% not true.


This statement is wrong. 9's and 4's change nothing. Aces and Jacks are bad cards only (6), and are another reason to flat flop and check turn.

Your statement about including 7-8 is wrong also. The fact that she raised and didn't call tosses this out the window. That and her chip manuver OTF make this ~0%.

Just saw the results GG

It takes way to long to type this **** out on a phone

results don't necessarily mean anything. Unless we see identical spots where she doesn't raise sets.

Conflicting thought process here ----^

and here -----v

If you don't think she's committed with $200 behind, then if she checks behind the turn, you're losing about $100 or so.

3-betting is bad because our hand is faced up, but checking the turn is bad as well, because too many villains are checking behind because they're afraid that you may have a better hand when you flat the raise on the flop...

It's a pretty easy game if typical villains almost always raise set on dry flop...

Exactly, the regs always slow play sets on dry boards.

All of what you said is true IF you think that your hand is beating hers and your trying to stack her.

If your not sure where your at In the hand (and judging from Original post and # of people advocating folding flop were not sure at all) then again shoving the flop is bad, but i fail to see your argument that checking the turn bad, ONLY b/c if she checks back we miss $100 value.

The alternatives are CRAI turn, or donk turn, both of which commit us when were just guessing and hoping were good, not confident and not sure where were at.

Maybe it comes down to math, would you rather get half her stack worth of value 100% confident with no real risk to your own stack, or would you rather put in her whole stack with x% uncertainty and not really know what shell turn over?

At what % confidence would getting it in on the flop or turn be justified to offset the $100 value you miss when she checks back?

One of the reasons i dont like 3-bet AI OTF is not only is your hand face up, and she may fold weaker hands, but your also putting it all in hoping, figuring your hand is probably best but really have no idea and certainly dont feel great about it. This last point is the same reason a check is right on the turn instead of commiting your stack prematurely on the chance (x%) your good, without the benefeit of additional information.

Listen I really don't pay too much attention to the middle aged woman remark, or whether or not somebody is asian. I mean these stereotypes are broad strokes but if you go around saying "he is asian therefore he is LAGtard" you are lighting money on fire. You said she was on the tighter side preflop, and your general impression of middle aged women post flop is basically irrelevant. Tbh, I completely disregarded the rest of your post afterwards because stuff like that basically tells us what she had and justifies the play (which was poor).

The simple fact of the matter is this: a player who is tight is not raising KJ, rarely raising AJ, rarely rarely raising a set and always raising 56. Without a specific read that villain over plays TP (and not your imaginary read about women in general) stacking off here at 150xbb effective PF is a poor play. Continuing to "find out where you are at" is also a poor play, you are OOP for ****s sakes.

Literally almost all the advice in this thread is ****ty (mine and a few others who gave advice along my lines excluded), this is probably the worst advice I have ever seen given ever in the history of 2+2 by a bunch of people who play 50xbb capped games.

On the flop given your total lack of a read on villains post flop play you can either fold or call then ch/r the turn and both of those are about equal in value.

Just lost some respect for you.

Just calling it like I see it, the advice itt is bad

Then explain or even attack why they're bad. Calling them bad, especially after what sounds like a sore loser post (but what's there to be sore about?), is just plain silly.

The difference of opinions comes down to reads. You read villain's raise as something along the line of 80% two pairs, 15% AJ and 5% set, and others read her as differently.

Is there anything else beyond that? If we can all agree on the read, is there anything else wrong with what is said in the thread?

My bad; I misread some responses.

GneedsneweyesorperhapsanewbrainG

I believe she's mostly Jx range, and obviously very strong Jx such as KJ and AJ, and therefore my line(s) is aimed toward getting my stack in the middle.

With that thought in mind, I believe 3-betting flop is too strong, and I hate seeing her checking behind the turn (and yes, I do see this a lot, especially from a tight villain against a perceived tricky hero) and leave money on the table, so I like donking half of her chips to commit her for river shove.

Yes they do.

Players certainly raise this flop and check blank turns.

I am pretty much getting it in here because there are more combos of AJ/KJ she is taking this line with than sets. If she has 56 we aren't drawing dead either, we can counterfeit.

When old ladys flop sets they don't 3x it otf in my experience.

This spot is 100% about reads.

Wow didnt figure you for such an elitist bro.......

If its not ur line i guess its a total pile of ****, even if backed up with sound logical arguments.