1/2 NL

V1 Was losing, Tilting and seemed to be overplaying hands. It is probably worth noting that he was coming off as pretty douchebaggy and it seemed most at the table would go out of their way to snap him off given the chance.

V2 Was young kid taking odd lines with very unconventional bet sizes... all over the place. In an hour of play I had only seen him 3 bet once and it was with AK. He was running pretty good ever since he sat down.

Hero MP $1200

V1 Cutoff $280
V2 Button $600

2 Limps
Hero KK Raise $12
V1 Raise $27
V2 Raise $67

At this point I put V1 on a range of almost any pairs or broadway cards but weight him to pocket pairs 99+

V1 although losing continues to be aggressive and go after pots. I decide if I flat here he is either shoving or more than likely flatting behind and will shove any flop checked to him.

V2 I put on a range of QQ+ and AK (I can't be sure but I believe he will play AK very very aggressively - tournament style.)

I am concerned that I am going to be a bit lost OOP after the flop. I decide to put V1 to the test now and see if he wants to get his whole stack involved which will either get it heads up with V2 with pretty well defined ranges or maybe even force V1 to put his whole stack in with the possibility of folding out V2 in which case I will call.

So I 5 bet to $177

V1 tanks / folds
V2 Insta Phil Helmuth shoves his whole stack spilling it all over the table.

My question is a) would flatting here and re-evaluating OTF out of position be better? I felt I am almost playing my kings for set value at that point. OR b) 5 bet a different sized bet.


EDIT: I butchered the Villain lables V1/V2 were all mixed up in original post... had to edit them.

if this sentence is really about V1.
PLEASE PLEASE FLAT, and not to play for set value obv.

This read and then how you respond to it have no logical correlation.

V1/V2 lables were all mixed up... Sorry about that.

No probs. So you have the perfect situation. We are going broke to V2 when he has aces if you put him on QQ+ and AK so given that our only objective is to stack both the other guys when we are ahead. We want their money in. If you expect V1 to spazz, let V2 get trapped in the middle, he is more likely to call /6bet V1 with his whole range than if you do it. We want both player's money in the pot.

I hardly think this is the perfect situation. We're deep and a live player just 4BET COLD. How often does someone 4BET COLD at your live table; do they ever not show up with AA here?

I actually think this is a really sucky spot. I would probably flat preflop and play purely for set value, thinking that if I do hit the K there is a good chance we stack the AA for all his chips.

Or I might just fold preflop cuz I've only got $10 invested and move on to a better spot.

GthinkingtherearebetterspotswithKKthanversusa4bett orpreflopG

I cold 4-bet bluff live!

I meant a very good situation given ops reads. Perfect was an exaggeration.

And if we get >10% of stacks in pre v a spewer, being deep doesn't bother me.

duplicate post

Yeah later after the session, this is what I was thinking (except the part about folding to the 4 bet). I mean I didn't really have enough info on V2 to indicate that his 4 bet was anything other than Aces or Kings. Obv i hold 2 kings. Perhaps his range was wider but in hindsight I think I sort of got married to the Kings and allowed wishful thinking to widen his range.

We were about deep enough to go ahead and set mine with Kings. If he has AA and I did spike a K, I am pretty sure he stacks off. If I miss it cost me the $55 call. Also if I flat V1 definitely comes along which of course if I set up is a great spot.

Assuming I flatted the 4 bet and no A or K hits OTF is check folding to say a 3/4 pot bet with KK here a reasonable fold? It always feels gross folding overpairs even when it seems your beat.

eh, I somehow thought the spazzy guy had 600

Probably my initial post was screwed up.

Spazzy guy had $280ish

Young kid who 4 bet had $600 (btw his girlfriend was also sitting at the table - does he want to go busto in front of G/F????) .

How fit was she?

About average... does that mean we flat the 4 bet?

fold to shove. 5 bet is super spew 300BB deep against someone with really polarized 3bet range.

When?

And also WTF at polarised????? I wish people would stop just throwing random 2+2 words into their analysis when they have no place there.

I am assuming you mean his range was narrow??? I agree and at the time poorly assesed his range making it wider than it was.

I understand fold to shove of course and agree in hindsight the 5 bet was probably spewy... are you folding or flatting the 4 bet?

I really think your description of this villain and the particular situation with Spazzy guy in the middle means putting him on only aces is wrong. Certainly folding pre is gross.

obviosly we are not folding. flat and play post

live 1/2 players make situational plays a lot less then you wouuld think especially this deep. he almost certainly has aces and stacking 300BB here pre against a guy who effectively never 3/4 bets is super spew imo. i used to say "never fold kk pre no matter what" and then i learned how to play poker.

No they don't make them less than I think. I'm quite aware they don't make them often. I also think QQ here in villains spot is a monster if player in the middle is as spewy as OP suggests.

I say fold is not a bad option cause if you flat v1 might shove given discription

Judging by the tone of your posts Im guessing you puke called and stacked off to his AA and now are looking for ways you could of avoided it when you couldnt of. With your reads and position this is just a cooler, you played it correctly. With your reads and at 1/2 Live table V2 easily shows up here with AK, QQ, or even JJ.

All you can do is say good hand and get ready for the next one.

Not sure what tone you mean but I was trying to be very specific that my question was specifically not related to the results of the hand or the 6 bet shove but whether to flat the 4 bet or raise a different amount.

I honestly didn't nor would I consider folding to the 4 bet this deep but I respect the GviewthatthiscouldbeastickyspotnotworthitG

As played I shut myself out of a flop and it cost me a lot more than if I would have just flatted (assuming V1 would have flatted also).

We're 300 BB deep here. I don't think we can just auto-stack off KK vs AA and say "oh well".

Gbeginningtothinkthatfoldingisahighlyunderratedpla yG

I agree. I don't think, this deep, it can be anything other than AA.

I have played with Cammando and he's capable of folding KK - he's done it to me, what, twice?