2/5 game. Average stack around 800-1000.

Reads
I have about 1200 and have a reputation for a winning player who plays generally tight but has a moderate tendency to semi-bluff and play draws fast.

UTG has about 1000 and has played with me a lot. He expects me to almost always raise my button and cbet a lot. He thinks about what hands people represent and can make a play at someone who he thinks is weak. He also tends to overplay his top pair hands and will call raises with 'trouble' hands (KJo, QJs, etc...) from OOP but he won't stack off with them when he's deep like some maniacs do. He doesn't slowplay on scary boards but he will if the conditions are right on a dry board.

UTG+1 has about 600 and is a little unknown, but I think he plays a little too loose, doesn't pay attention to position, and doesn't think about what hands people represent.

Action

UTG, UTG+1, and the Hijack limp to me in the cutoff.

I raise to 35 with Ks Kd

UTG and UTG+1 call.

Flop ($115)
Qd 2d 3h

Checked to me. I bet 90.

UTG checkraises to 190 leaving himself a little over 700. UTG+1 calls fairly quickly leaving himself about 400.

What do you put them on?
What is my best course of action for the rest of the hand?

Fold.

Given the title I'm going to assume you called which is probably bad.

Why? Give me some ranges for them. What do you think they are thinking?

Any set, as 22 and 33 were priced in to call and see a flop. You don't check raise with marginal hands like AQ, you either do it as a complete bluff or with the nuts

lol, **** all that, raise like a boss, snap call any shove.

Seems pretty obvious that UTG+1 is on the FD. But UTG is a different story, he's weighted toward sets and SC that hit considering his limp/call. Fold or flat both seem fine considering depth.

Check raise is pretty much a minraise, which is begging for a call. Probably a set looking to get you committed to calling bigger bets on later streets IMO...

GRUNCH (except for the first reply I read that said calling is bad w/o any explanation whatsoever)

I'm not folding this flop for another 100 getting 5.85 to 1. I think you bet too much on the flop considering SPR is not ideal for stacking off going to the flop (over 8:1 which is too high against villian who has a clue). I think 60 would have been plenty. I see checkraises from these types of regs a lot with TP "to protect" so you cant just fold flop. I would call flop and fold to a turn jam. Sucks burning 100 if he jams turn or UTG2 jams turn but I dont like stacking off here given action and folding is too weak. I would bet turn if checked to.

I see UTG's range as QQ, 33, 22, AQ, KQ, QJ. If I'm close we are crushing. I would not worry too much about UTG2 as his range is mostly flush draws, 45, and random Q's here.

How often does UTG open-limp with AQ, KQ, and QJ? If he's going to play passively with them pre-flop, he's not often going to randomly overplay them on the flop when he hits top-pair.

I think you are deep enough to call and evaluate action on the turn since you have position.


I think UTG's range is relatively narrow - KQ, QJ type hands, 22, 33, and the the flush draw. (Disagree with above poster about UTG having QQ or AQ as I doubt he open limps with those hands).

If UTG has the FD, then what does UTG +1 have to cold-call the raise? His hand has to be limited to sets, unless he also has the flush draw (which is unlikely).

Conversely, if UTG+1 has the FD, then UTG's range is more weighted to 22 or 33 (or KQ/QJ).

The best case scenario for you is that UTG and UTG+1 both have FD's and both miss. 2nd best is that UTG has KQ or QJ and is "raising to find out where he's at" while UTG+1 has the FD.

More likely is that one has a set and one has a FD.

Call the min-raise.

Turn action will tell you a lot - if the turn bricks, a large bet by UTG followed by a call from UTG+1, and you can safely fold.

If the turn bricks and there's a small bet or checked to you, I think that you are likely still good.

If the diamond comes on the turn, you can evaluate the action and determine if you're getting the right price to call to catch a diamond - keeping in mind that you'd be drawing dead against a made nut flush, and probably won't get paid much, if at all, by a lower flush.

Based on c/r sizing UTG can easily have Qx. UTG+1 can have an FD here a lot. You really have to call flop and see the action on the turn.

If turn bricks and UTG bombs it, (don't matter what +1 does) you should fold.
If turn is probably fold.
If turn bricks and its checked to you, I'd consider shoving.

call now u gotta be good 1/ 6 times, but c-bet size is awful. Ur asking to get fked with and u make it soooo easy for UTG to put u in bad spots. all he did is min raise and ur in a jam. think about it. I prob c-bet 65 here and 40 is probably better

Give me an explanation of what UTG's move is (bluff / semi-bluff / value), and how our hand does vs that range of hands that do this.

$40? Into $115ish? Are you trying to give away the pot? 2/3 pot is $75-$80. I'd bet in that range.

He is definitely capable of doing this with any Q that is in his range. And he will limp/call preflop with AQ-QJs. But I have also sometimes seen him treat those hands like they only have showdown value and try to get to the river with them cheap.

He may also take this line with sets. And although I hate to revert to gut feelings like this, I think it is more likely he would have c/r a larger amount with a set. Not 100% though.

I have seen him play flush draws like this, but I have also seen him just call with them in similar spots.

So as you can see, the way he plays, I really can't pin him on a specific range. He takes too many non-standard lines and doesn't take the same line with the same type of hands every time.

Call and turn a King. If that fails, see how much he bets. Usually the turn bet-sizing will tell you what you need to know.

ksight's bolded quote pretty much sums it up for me. OP u stated he wont go broke with trouble hands this deep now youre thinking he will? i mean unless hes gonna check through the turn trying to get to cheap showdown that way, which i doubt it. u keep changing what you said in the first post. now ur saying he can do this with FD. u said he doesnt like to slow play. i also i agree with ksight saying odds dont really matter in this situation because we are very likely wayyyyyyy behind and have to cach essentially a 1 outer since we dont have the Kh in our hand.

There must be a misunderstanding.

I see where I said he wouldn't go broke with trouble hands. Where did I change that and say I thought he would? Just because I think a Q could be in his range after the checkraise, that doesn't mean I think he goes broke with a Q. Did you assume that was the case?

I also see where I said he could do this with a FD. Where did I say he couldn't?

And I said he is more likely to slowplay on dry flops than on drawy flops. Where did I say he doesn't like to slow play?

Part 2
2/5 game. Average stack around 800-1000.

Reads
I have about 1200 and have a reputation for a winning player who plays generally tight but has a moderate tendency to semi-bluff and play draws fast.

UTG has about 1000 and has played with me a lot. He expects me to almost always raise my button and cbet a lot. He thinks about what hands people represent and can make a play at someone who he thinks is weak. He also tends to overplay his top pair hands and will call raises with 'trouble' hands (KJo, QJs, etc...) from OOP but he won't stack off with them when he's deep like some maniacs do. He doesn't slowplay on scary boards but he will if the conditions are right on a dry board.

UTG+1 has about 600 and is a little unknown, but I think he plays a little too loose, doesn't pay attention to position, and doesn't think about what hands people represent.

Action

UTG, UTG+1, and the Hijack limp to me in the cutoff.

I raise to 35 with Ks Kd

UTG and UTG+1 call.

Flop ($115)
Qd 2d 3h

Checked to me. I bet 90.

UTG checkraises to 190 leaving himself a little over 700. UTG+1 calls fairly quickly leaving himself about 400.

What do you put them on?
What is my best course of action for the rest of the hand?


I call.

My reasoning is that I'm getting almost 6:1 and have both relative and actual position.

I kind of think UTG+1 has a flush draw since he called so quickly. If he had a monster or a bare Q, I think he would take longer to consider his options. With a flush draw, he probably knows he'll get it in here 3 ways no matter what and he wants to keep me in so I think he thinks he has an easy call.

And although I'm not drawing to cards, I am 'drawing' that UTG is getting out of line with a Q. I think there is a more than 20% chance of that. I will probably call a small bet from UTG again on the turn regardless of what hits if UTG+1 folds. I will hope that he either shuts down on the river or I spike something. If he bets big, or if UTG+1 gives action, I will probably fold. I know it's a heck of a parlay and everything has to work just right, but the pot is big and I have position.

If UTG checks, I think it is fairly likely he has a bare Q. If UTG+1 then bets, I'm going to go with my gut that he has a flush draw and is making a last ditch effort to fold us both out now that UTG has shown weakness by checking the turn and I have shown weakness by just calling the flop. To this action, I will probably shove. Although maybe just calling is better to make UTG think that I'm on a flush draw and that his Q might be good.

Turn ($685)
6c

UTG Checks. UTG+1 shoves for about 430.

Now what do you put them on and what should I do? If you decide to play the hand, should you shove and put UTG in for his last 700 or so? Or should you just call and hope he sees weakness and puts you on a flush draw and shoves over your call with something like AQ?

Shove and get UTG out there's too much money in the pot. UTG+1 is not too likely to have a set from your reads, and UTG either has a draw or Q himself.

4d 5d

fold

as I said earlier, I like calling min-check raise OTF in order to evaluate turn action.

Now fold.

are these players stuck or up? i think thats important.

snap flod. its a bit more interesting without the overcall.

This makes no sense to me.

I think this is the best turn card and the best action we can hope for on the turn. This is the scenario we want to play back against.

UTG+1's action on the turn doesn't make his range stronger. His range is the same as it has always been. And now I'm even less scared that UTG has me beat.

Really? It makes perfect sense to me.

As I said in my first post, UTG +1's snap cold call of the check raise narrows his range to a flush draw (or FD/SD combo) or a set.

Turn does not complete flush, but it does bring in a straight. UTG checks (putting his range as a weak Q or a FD). UTG+1 shoves. In my mind this is a set or a straight every time.

You are behind. Fold.

The only magic scenario in which I see you making money is if you shove and get UTG to call with his weak queen (not gonna happen) or his FD (may happen) and he misses.

Not worth it.

Fold. If UTG+1 bluffed me, I'm okay with it.