Ahaa...I knew you were going to comeback with a question about ranges.
I make a deal with you. I answer my questions, and my thoughts on that, and then you answer your question and you thoughts on that.

You should know by now that ranges are not my strongest point.

I report back later when I have more time. Deal?

P.S. you'd be proud of me if you saw the huge pot I won the other night....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...9/index56.html

.

Basically if a range is composed of hands that are ahead of your hand and draws and maybe some bluffs and you shove on that range with substantial $ behind, you isolate the part of the range against which your equity sucks. If you choose to continue against such a range, you have to let the air/draws continue as much as possible rather than try to shut them out. Obviously if someone is a complete fish and will call you with their full range (original range = continuing range), then sure. But 99.9% of people will continue with a much tighter range against a shove, especially deep, than their original flop raise range.

As a over-simplistic rule, if you never stack off with one pair for 150bb+ in a single-raised pot at 2/5NL and below that's probably best. If you decide to break this rule you better have some very specific player reads or be bluffing with good rationale. So if someone is a proven maniac then sure, but against opponents short of being a maniac I think it's -EV on average even if you catch some bluffs some of the time.

Gee, Setsy...didn't I tell you I am a college drop out? I had to read it three times to get it.
I very well see your point but this does not address the fact that by calling we are basically committing 1/2 stack with a vulnerable KK, with one villain still acting behind on a wet board and there is more than 1/2 deck that we basically hate to see on the turn.
What If hero calls this raise, and the gorgeous lady calls, the pot is nearly $700 and hero has $250 behind, Are you folding to a shove from villain( which is very likely) on a blank turn?
What if hero calls, THE GL calls, and there is a 10, A, , 6, J, 7 on the turn? What is the plan now? c/f? c/c? C/ decide?
What if.....
What if.....
What if....
I can think of many different scenarios on the turn/ river where hero is in a sh***y spot where no option is better than other.
The flop is where we make our decision, not the turn. We are either committed or we are not.

I am not advocating a shove here( see my original post) , but I am most certainly against a call.

BTW, hero is only 100bb deep.

Cyrus: I'm pretty sure Setsy isn't advocating a call here and a fold on the turn, at least not against all villains. His (her?) point, if I understand correctly, is that by just calling you extract more value from a range of hands that would fold to a shove. That means you're calling flop with the intention of calling turn (unless villain wouldn't bet turn with flush draws). Now obviously calling flop is a risky play, for precisely the reasons you outlined. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? I don't see how to answer that without a range analysis.

I am aware he is not advocating a call but considers it as a viable option.

What he is saying which I agree with 100% applies if hero was much deeper, but hero is not deep enough (only 100bb) to exercise this option. By calling we have gone way beyond committment threshold. It is a mistake to call, commit 1/2 of our stack and fold on the turn.

You misunderstand what slipstream was saying. He is saying that Setsy is not advocating a c/f, but that he IS advocating a c/c, for the purpose of not blowing villain off of his draws. Essentially, the call is a committing call, with the plan to get stacks in on later streets.

Yes, this is basically my point.

@Cyrus: being committed doesn't always mean shoving. You have to think about villain tendencies and maximize.

C/f is one of the options Setsy is considering....see bolded below....

All of Setsy's advice is based the read we have on villain and his tendencies.
1) if villain is A, do this
2) if villain is B, do that

What do we know about villain? His tendencies? His aggression level on the turn? basically nothing. If you, Setsy, or anybody else wants to commit 1/2 their stack against an unknown to see what he does on the turn, go ahead. Just make sure you report back and tell us how it is working out for you.

When did I say being committed means shoving? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

1) I never advocated shoving. I say calling is bad if we are going to fold on the turn. you say shoving is bad becasue villain only continues with part of his range that crushes us. I guess it leaves one option: folding.

2) You and I have had this discussion before many times in many other posts.

We do not know this villain and his tendencies. Hero doesn't even know this villain and his tendencies and he was at the table. Stop telling me to think about unknowns...

I think there are many spots where we can call flop and fold turn, especially if a scary card comes.

I don't think this is really one of them since the pot will be monstrous, it's likely that at least 1 player is drawing, and if they have a hand like JJ that they're overplaying it's highly unlikely they're going to fold for $275 in this kind of pot.

If we were very, very deep and we have a read that V2 is FOS we can sometimes call and evaluate the turn because our call is so strong that villain is not going to OVERPLAY AT on a Queen turn after we call in this spot.

Easy tiger, just trying to help you .

If we don't know villain tendencies well enough to play the turn reasonably well I think folding flop is best.

Ranges (which you mentioned earlier is not your strong suit) change street to street. Therefore for some players the range which raises flop is much weaker than the range which raises flop and then also bets turn. For very aggro players those two ranges could be almost the same. There was a very good Bart Hanson podcast a while back when they were free with Shane 'Noluck17' explaining that concept. If that's true at 10/20 where people are on average far more aggro, then it would certainly be applicable to 2/5 unknowns.

All you who call with combo draw how do you even make money? Anyone who thinks his raising range is only sets and 2pr yet say he is a competent player must not know the difference between competence and nut peddler