1/2 loose passive live cash

What do you do with hands like KJ/77/AT in the small/big blind when there are few limper limp in? Assume all player are 100bb deep. I am happy to isolate these hand in late position since my isolate range is ahead of most player limping range. I think it is profitable to isolate these hand in late position, some thought? However, should I isolate these hand in SB/BB? or should I just limp along?

If you were utg with these hands and you saw several players behind you just itching to limp in, would you raise?

KJ and A10 are pretty good to squeeze if your opponents are likely to fold pre and play fit/ fold. If you do get called then you can flop top pair roughly 30% of the time as a backup. The real goal should be to just pick up the dead money.

I wouldn't do it at a loose table since it will likely go multiway. Too often you are OOP and flop nothing, so you will have to check/fold a lot. If you limp in, you can still get value when you hit a flop from all the loose fish without risking any more money preflop with a raise.

I don't think you're isolating so much as you're hoping to take it down without a flop. With 4-5 limpers, in low limit live play, it's not too hard to take it down with a raise from the SB/BB but make sure you size it properly. Also don't abuse it. It really depends on your image.

As long as I'm not being perceived as a loose player, if I raise my SB to $22 after 4 limps + the BB, for example, I'm probably taking the blinds 60-70% of the time. If you don't raise enough, you end up with everyone calling you and you're OOP with a weak, exposed holding.

With that said, I don't recommend the play unless you feel like you're a pretty strong post-flop player. RIO can quickly make this unprofitable if you go heads up against a person limping KQ/AJ/AK and you're holding KJ, for example. If you aren't very good with RIO situations I'd probably recommend this play more with small pocket pairs where you can really take down some big pots even if you get multiple callers and you get lucky and spike a set.

Isolation ranges really depend on who you are isolating, what range they limp, how often they continue, what range they continue and what mistakes they make postflop. Without reads I don't do really any isolating from blinds except with pretty strong hands: TT+ AK AJs KQs.

In position maybe I stretch to 88+ AJ+ KQ ATs KJs QJs JTs if I know many are loose and stationy and there are no nits limping hands that dominate the weaker hands in that range. I will use as wide as maybe 22+ AQ A2s+ KQs-54s KJs-64s if they are all foldy preflop (not limping any really strong hands) and tight/ABC postflop.

I'd have to be IP and targeting a particularly loose station or very predictable weak/tight folder to be very happy isolating ATo/KJo. To put it in perspective I open KJo from MP and ATo from HJ if there are no tough players behind me but I'll ditch them facing tricky and competent players in later positions.

Why the real goal is to just pick up the dead money? ofc I am happy to pick up the dead money but even if they call, KJ/AT is ahead of most of their limping range. Actually we are isolate KJ for value isn't? is it profitable to isolate KJ and play fit/ fold if pot go multiway?

KJ is ahead of most of the limping range. Actually we are isolate KJ for value isn't? There are still lot of worse hand will call like KT QJ?

Depends on the table, really. Whether it's ahead or not though doesn't matter much. I think with KJ you should always be happy with picking up the dead money or making a cbet on a made/missed flop and getting a fold from the player who called. You don't really want to face a lot of decisions with KJ because it's often a RIO hand on a table that doesn't limp much. If this table was limping a lot all day, then sure, you're probably ahead of most of their limping range, but AQ, AJ, KQ, and KJ, along with JJ, are probably the hardest hands to play well on the flop for most players. They can really get you into some gross situations as you're often winning small money with them and losing big money. I tend to find that those hands play much better on tables that have a healthy amount of PFRs and 3 betting going on. In a tight/passive game I think they get a lot more dangerous.

If there's a few limpers, you should just over limp. You aren't going to flop a hand that you want 3 streets of value very often. And your raise sizing in a limped pot will likely be too small to take down the pot in a loose passive game. So you're basically bloating the pot OOP with pretty marginal hands. Not what I want to do. I'd save my raising of KJ A10o type hands for 3 bet bluff spots. Because if someone who raises maybe too wide but respects 3 bets, gets called in multiple spots, your raise sizings will have to be much larger because of the size of the pot at its current stage. And now they are thinking "**** I got a $12 hand but I don't want to put in another $50 to see the flop" And fold. But with hands like small pk pairs I'd over call/limp because they play very well in multiway pots. You want the opportunity to stack multiple people when flopping sets.

Also if you raise larger to just take it down, when raising limpers, people will start seeing this in your bet sizing and reraise bluff you.

The key to playing those marginal hands OOP is to not get married to the hand. You're not trying to flop a pair. You are going for the nut straight. If you flop top pair, say KJ on a Jxx flop, like I said earlier, you're not looking for 3 streets of value, so you are checking the flop. And depending on board texture and the turn card either checking or betting the turn. Same on river. But by checking the flop, you can get value from 2nd pair and worse as they think cuz it got checked thru that their pair is good, esp if the turn didn't bring an over card to the board.

And as someone stated earlier, if the table is tight passive and likely to fold, then you can raise to take down the pot now. But if they are folding too often, then you should be bluff raising a lot of crap to take advantage of this.

Masta--

Imo, just check option/complete, hope to flop a monster, and give up easily if you don't. There are much easier spots in LLSNL.

Grunch (means I have only read the first post): Welcome to the forum, OP. Live cash is not like online. You're not going to isolate in this game. You are going to play a bloated pot OOP with a mediocre hand when the limp/calling ranges will often have you dominated. Just overlimp and hope to hit a great flop. If not, c/f.

Post grunch: The real question isn't if KJ is ahead of their limping range (it is, in general), it's whether KJ is ahead of their limp/calling range (it usually isn't). If there are several limpers, one to all of them are going to call, and you are no longer ahead of their ranges, and are also OOP.

Why do you think those hands play much better on tables that have a healthy amount of PFRs and 3 betting going on?

Great post. Against some fish who limp call very wide. Isn't make sense to isolate a wider value range? like KJ/AT? I hate play OOP with marginal hands too but by not raising these hand against FISH. I feel like we leaving some money on the table? Our KJ most likely ahead of FISH limp calling range. We have better skill. Let's play a bigger pot? What's the bottom of your isolate range in the blinds? Will you isolate with KQ?


Against some nit/passive player who limp with a really tight range. I agree we should not isolate hands like KJ/AT. However, against some fish who limping almost every hand and limp calling very wide. Why not wider our value isolate range? We have better skill/card. If they fold pre, cool. If they call, we often have a stronger range than FISH limp calling range. What's the bottom of your isolate range in the blinds? Will you isolate with KQ?

Ofc there are nothing wrong to just overlimp but isn't we leaving some money on the table against FISH?

Sorry, I should have explained my thoughts there in a bit more detail. I can see how that could be taken the wrong way.

I like AQ/KQ/AJ/KJ better on tables in which players are healthily PFR and preflop 3b with wider ranges. If your table is showing a lot of 2b and 3b PFRs with top 10 hands, then no, those hands are terrible.

Unless you're stealing dead money with those hands (which can include using them in a 3b preflop against a tight player who you think you can get to fold), you generally want to stay out of RIO situations with those hands.

In the long run, you aren't winning big pots with AQ/KQ/AJ/KJ. You're winning small pots and dead money with them. It's important to use them in proper spots and against wider ranges. Occasionally you'll get lucky enough to hit a set/straight/2p and get paid, but that's not the norm.

When 4 fish are limp/calling wide, one of them is ahead of KJ almost all the time. Fish love to l/c weak aces.

Plus, the key word in this play is "isolate." You aren't isolating. Most of them will l/c. That means you are almost never winning un-improved. Somebody either dominates you or hits the flop basically every time. Greater skills don't count for **** when the SPR is 1:1 and you flop air OOP in a five way pot.

You're not isolating anything raising 6 limpers from the SB. It's not going to happen without an LOL astronomically sized raise. You're well out of position against a ton of players with a mediocre hand. Just limp if BB and complete (or fold) from the SB, hope to strike gin and give up if you don't.

Trying to isolate from here will often get even very good players into trouble imo.

What range of hands do you isolate/raise from the blinds when there are few limpers limp in? Will you isolate hands like KQ/AJ? Should our blinds isolate range similar to UTG/EP opening range?

Depends on who limped and how many. It's pretty tight tho. 88-AA, AJs+ AQ+??

I don't really think about isolating with tons of limpers. It's pretty useless.

I played 7 hours last Saturday with a good mix of fish, good players, and whatever is in between. In those 7 hours, it was heads-up before the flop exactly ONCE.

Trying to isolate in LLSNL is a recipe for busto. Especially with KJ.

I agree that it is awfully hard to isolate (with any hand), however, I think KJs is a great hand to add to your blind raising range. I would probably pump this up to 25-30 preflop (my usual raise from the blinds), and while I wouldn't expect to win the blinds and limps very often, we are going to the flop with a hand that flops well enough to give us a fair amount of equity.

Since most of the limpers who paid 2 to hit the flop are now paying 25 to smash the flop, any cbet we make has a good chance of showing an immediate profit (you will be surprised at what people show you they are folding). Since we are at a loose/passive table, we can treat any call postflop as a raise and proceed accordingly, thus taking out most of the RIO of a hand like this.