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JJ versus Maniac OOP JJ versus Maniac OOP

11-25-2016 , 12:42 PM
This game came up when I was playing $1/$3 the other day. I'd appreciate advice for play on each street.

-Hero is in the SB with $625.
-Villain ($215) in the big blind is a wealthy, middle aged asian woman who sat down last hand, raised $50 into a $7 pot, and hasn't got off her phone. She's wearing two massive rings.
-Other two players ($300 ish stacks) in hand are fairly standard players that appear to be tight-ish regs.

Hero has JJ in the SB.

UTG +1 limps, folds to player in CO who raises to $10. I raise to $25. BB and the other two limpers call.

FLOP ($95): 825
I see this as a near idea flop for JJ, so I bet (EDIT: not raise) $50. Villain snap calls, other two fold.

TURN ($195): 4
I check. Villain shoves all in for $140. I ???

Is this an auto fold against a potential "maniac", or am I up against A8, a flush draw semibluff enough to call?

Last edited by ZodiacLuck; 11-25-2016 at 01:03 PM.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 12:50 PM
What did the "maniac" show up with when she bet $50 into $7? It's quite hard to tell from this description whether she is really a maniac or simply overbetting pots to protect her hand (for fear of being sucked out on).

Preflop is dependent on stack sizes / tendencies of raiser / etc.; I would often just flat here unless stacks against raiser were short and he was loose/aggro. Not really in love with going 4way to the flop either, so if this was likely to happen I'd probably 3bet a little bigger (if I was 3betting).

Flop bet size also depends on stacks. The shorter everyone is, the bigger we can bet and simply probably play for stacks by the turn; the deeper everyone is, the smaller we can bet and see what happens.

On the turn we'd probably like to know a little more about our opponent and how exactly she is maniacal (does she ship everything when checked to when shown weakness, will she snap call one pair here, etc.). But in the end we have 3/4 PSB left, so we should probably default to just shoving ourselves, and as played call. In general, I'm not folding in a small SPR pot against anyone I've labelled a "maniac".

GimoG
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 12:59 PM
snap call as played.

Flop can be $60 - $65 to set up a nice sized turn shove and for more value.
Shove the turn instead though for fat value of checking.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 01:01 PM
Thanks for your input!

I definitely didn't want to be 4-way on the flop--I wanted to get heads up against the raiser, who is fairly straightforward and has shown a tendency to fit-or-fold, so I figured JJ would be easy to play against him HU even OOP. I didn't anticipate getting called from the BB, and I'm sure UTG+1 would have folded had BB not called. I was not loving have 3 follow me to the flop!

So, with the stacks as listed, how much would you have raised on the flop? Other players had $150-$250 left, and UTG+1 and CO almost certain had hit hard or were getting out of the hand.

Last edited by ZodiacLuck; 11-25-2016 at 01:07 PM.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
snap call as played.

Flop can be $60 - $65 to set up a nice sized turn shove and for more value.
Shove the turn instead though for fat value of checking.
This.

Your 3! is too small. $35-$40.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush
This.

Your 3! is too small. $35-$40.
Really? I hadn't even thought about going that high. Am I ever getting called by worse, or is that folding everything but QQ-AA, and that's the goal?
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 01:15 PM
Not enough information to determine whether she really is a maniac. But against an average 1/3 player with an overpair on that board with an SPR that small it basically is snap call yeah, getting about 2.3 to 1 on a call,roughly 28ish% of the time you gotta be good to break even. Chuck in some spaz semi bluff hands which combo draws and over pairs like 99/TT in her range which you are dominating and overplayed A8 id lean towards a call. Occasionally villain will rock up with 2 pairs which you aren't too bad of an underdog against, even more rarely with the straight/set which you are virtually dead against but against the vast majority(key term) of a 1/3 player's range you should call.
One gripe i have with how you played is your 3bet sizing preflop. Since you're OOP you want to discourage those cold calls as they just lead to a domino affect and achieved nothing here but bloat the pot OOP with a horrible hand to play multiway. Make it $32-37 ballpark in my opinion, get it either heads up (which isn't ideal either as JJ is extremely hard to play 100bb+ OOP) or pick up the already $19 pot. Also of the original opener had a premium hand, i found that any decent player would make it 5x-7x bb in front of some limpers, fact that the original opener made it 3.33x open, greater incentive to charge the likely garbage range more to see a flop as you are OOP.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodiacLuck
Really? I hadn't even thought about going that high. Am I ever getting called by worse, or is that folding everything but QQ-AA, and that's the goal?
Youre OOP and hands like AQ/KQ are even money against you. Even medicore hands like QTo have close to 28% equity. Even if you got it heads up, not many flops are amazing for JJ OOP. You allowing yourself to either get outdrawn/outplayed/ cold called by limpers (which is what happened) with a 3bet sizing like that
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 01:37 PM
its a call 1 million percent of the time against this villain
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 05:32 PM
Snap call. Plenty of worse call the flop and shove the turn (overcard+flush draws, TT/99/8x hands). The SPR is so low you never fold an overpair. Well played pre and on the flop. I'd probably put villain all in myself. However, checking to induces is fine if you think she'll shove with anything she calls the flop with.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 06:58 PM
Haven't read others, but this is a snap call for me considering villain. Already, given the stack to pot ratio of 2, I'm happy to commit with an over-pair. More specifically, I think our PF 3bet should have been much greater. 2.5x into 3 people is nothing but a pot builder. I'd go 4.5 to 5.5x in this scenario.

The flop is fairly dry, especially for a raised pot, so I don't mind the small bet, but I think anyone calling $50 will consider $60 as well, (or $55?) If we had raised more PF, we'd be in a better spot to get stacks in. I would not slow down OTT without a solid read that V would get aggro. I'm all in first.

In my experience, these types of players are at the table for their ego's sake, not their bankroll. Old women like this frequent my games & I find they're thrilled by the adrenaline rush of chasing and generally showing "no-fear."
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-25-2016 , 09:44 PM
I stopped reading at "I check". That's where you made a mistake unless your intention was to check/snap call
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-26-2016 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumor
I stopped reading at "I check". That's where you made a mistake unless your intention was to check/snap call
My intention WAS to induce a bet and snap call, which in real life I did, and she showed 36. I was writing to be sure that my plan to call on her bet wasn't a mistake and to see where I could improve on earlier streets.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-26-2016 , 10:59 PM
V called for a gutter ball getting 3:1 direct and 3:1 implied odds and then binked it on the turn.

Move along, nothing to see here.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-26-2016 , 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodiacLuck
My intention WAS to induce a bet and snap call, which in real life I did, and she showed 36. I was writing to be sure that my plan to call on her bet wasn't a mistake and to see where I could improve on earlier streets.
LOL! Gotta love low-stakes live. Well played. Easiest reload ever if villains snap call gut shots
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-26-2016 , 11:47 PM
That is the definition of binking a miracle.

You should be betting for value like crazy against this person.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-27-2016 , 04:16 AM
It's kind of interesting that when someone does something stupid, it can make people doubt themselves.

V showing up with 63s should make you laugh and congratulate her, not posting a hand and wondering whether you made a mistake.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote
11-27-2016 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
It's kind of interesting that when someone does something stupid, it can make people doubt themselves.

V showing up with 63s should make you laugh and congratulate her, not posting a hand and wondering whether you made a mistake.
Definitely doubting myself--I know I'm not seeing 63s every time I play this hand, but I was certainly wondering whether she's only betting when she's got my mid-strength overpair beat.
JJ versus Maniac OOP Quote

      
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