2/5 borgatA

Sit down with friend at table. played a few orbits, and villain, in be ran a big bluff on tight player. And had to rebuy. Probably a reg. Older.

hand:
Friend ($500) raises it to $20, I call in my with JJ ($500), villain in bb calls as well. ($500) re bought after losing a hand

Flop: 9d8s,2d,
Bb checks, friends bets out $30, I call, bb check raises to $130, friend folds, I tank, and call

Turn: 7c
bb shoves, i throw up, hero????

Fold, but also go back in time and fold to the check raise like you should have. Player would have to be a maniac for me to think he didn't have two pair here minimum.

Yeah, u r right, but is 2 pair+ specifically the only hand he can have I'm check raising? Or is that the case 99% of the time live? Don't play live much

How long ago was the hand where BB bluffed off his stack, and what was the action in that hand? Usually this is a snap-fold, but could be a call in this instance if it seems like BB is tilting.

Do we not 3bet anything but AA/KK pre anymore because we don't want a low spr? Are we set-mining with JJ? I'm legitimately asking, not being sarcastic.

Considering you have 2 blockers for the nuts and the way Villain has played the hand, 2 pair/set makes the most sense for sure.

He could have a monster combo fd/sd here but I think 2 pair is much more likely.

Looks like the pot is $350 on turn with exactly a pot sized bet on the turn from Villain.

If Villain has 89, Hero is a 27/73 dog
If Villain has a set, Hero is a 14/86 dog
Best case scenario, Villain has Td7d and Hero is 65/35 fav

I think it is pretty clear fold. As a couple of posts have suggested, I think we are better off folding flop raise.

If we pick up a Ten, can we call off here profitably?

A third Jack is the only good card for us and it hits some of his perceived range as well. Essentially there is no good card for Hero to come out.

I 3 bet super light in live, especially on the button. Almost any suited Ace or King, Broadways, and AA-TT.

Wow, diamond draw and oesd, and we are gonna fold JJ cause V (who just rebought after a bluff gone wrong, maybe tilting?) just HAS to have 2 pair or a set here?

I snap call this and send V home to think about why he might not wanna rebuy when tilting.

And, btw, if V x/r 2 pair here OTF, I don't mind him holding my money for a bit for me, I will get it back.....

Not necessarily. But a quick look at my crappy equity calculator app on my phone says that even AQdd wins this race half the time. If you add in hands that he's already beating us with we lose this hand a bunch.

I really feel like JJ is a bad hand to flat to an initial raiser except at very tight tables because it's going to play terribly post flop multiway (as seen by this hand).

But I'm looking for wiser heads than me to explain otherwise.

That's a pretty crappy equity calculator. Think 34.09% instead of half.....

And sure, if his range is AQdd and only hands that beat us, we are in bad shape. But I think a reasonable range given the info in the OP would see JJ as, at most, a slight dog, certainly no worse than 33%.

There have been several threads that I can recall talking about how JJ usually isn't a good hand to 3bet (though there are exceptions).

The main reasons are:

1) Often, though not always, 3betting JJ is actually turning it into a bluff. (That doesn't mean you can't do it--just that you can pick better hands to bluff with while using JJ to strengthen your calling range.)

2) Usually, though not always, getting 4bet is disgusting.

3bet preflop. Raise the flop.

This. Stop playing scared because it leads to these situations. If you get re-raised on the flop, you can easily lay it down.

Hey thanks. I'll look for those threads but if there's one you're thinking of, post a link.

That said, I feel 2/5 and below, opening ranges and pre-flop calling ranges are both so wide that I think flatting JJ creates this exact situation more often than not. I certainly understand the overall importance of balancing ranges but that isn't something the vast majority of low stakes players pay attention to.

Unless OP's friend only opens pots with AA/KK/QQ or stack sizes are such that it makes post-flop play difficult, I feel like there's no reason to flat here in the vast majority of live low-stakes games.

Where are you getting 34.09% on the flop?

To be clear, I'm not calling a check/raise on the flop, and all advice was to fold on the flop, so my calculations are on the flop, not the turn.

Double-checked in front of my computer. On flop pokerstove says 54/46 AQ vs. JJ.

More from pokerstove...the "Total Spewmonkey" Range...
67% JJ vs. 33% TT-22, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ac9c, Ah9h, As9s, Ac8c, Ah8h, As8s, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kc9c, Kh9h, Ks9s, QdJd, QdTd, JdTd, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 6d5d, 54s, A9o-A8o, K9o, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 54o

The "I have a legit piece of this and am willing to push it" Range...
51% JJ vs. 49% TT-88, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ac9c, Ah9h, As9s, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kc9c, Kh9h, Ks9s, QdJd, QdTd, JdTd, 98s, 76s, A9o, 98o

The "I have almost best draw or lock" Range...
30% JJ vs. 70% 99-88, AdQd, AdJd, KdQd, KdJd, JdTd, 98s, 7d6d, 7s6s, 98o

So on the flop it's pretty close. I don't think you can call here, either fold or shove.

OK, you are talking OTF.

I was answering OP's question.

About 2 or 3 hands before. Triple barrel bluffed k52,7,a board. tight player made a call with kq

I think that's one of the challenges of playing with friends if you allow that to change how you would play a hand. You gotta play it straight up, and once heads up you can slow down if you'd like. Otherwise you create really wired spots because you are underrepping your hand.

Masta--

Given this information, I'm calling it off.

Oh, and 3-bet pre.

3b pre

fold to flop raise

fold to turn jam

If he's tilting and you know it..

flat flop or even 3b jam flop considering you're very likely to have most equity on flop and lots of cards smash vs range on the turn.

snap call turn

If he's really that spewy then your hand is crazy underrepped for the same reasons you should have 3bet pre. However I still lean towards a bunch of JT, 2 pair, and sets in his range on the turn. I mean, even a spewnozzle starts to wonder what you have flatting the original bettor then flatting the check/raise again.

Maybe TT? If villain is super bad and tilting he could have check/raised the overpair to the board on the flop to get rid of your friend's super obvious AK cbet and your drawing hand and jammed once he picked up the straight draw because he's watched too much tv poker. He may have thought he was best on flop and is now subconciously turning his hand into a bluff.

I think it's important to parse bad player logic occasionally.

3betting JJ or flatting JJ versus the PFR just depends on what the position of friend is in relation to Hero in relation to good/bad players left to act behind hero.

I will usually flat JJ more than 50% of the time versus a solid player who is open-raising from UTG-MP1.

I don't think that you should be automatically 3betting JJ because there are a lot of important factors which will make me lean more towards a thin value 3bet or just flat calling.

It would be nice if OP provided more preflop details, so we could better comment on the 3bet JJ or flat JJ discussion.

FWIW, I think caliing shove or just folding are both very close on the turn. I am a little more likely to sigh-call off if we don't have the Jd in our hand. If we have the Jd in our hand, then I am a little more likely to sigh-fold.

Tangent: screwing around micros online last night I took people's advice and flatted pre with JJ a few times. First time I flopped quads and c/c to a guy spewing with K high. So I'm a convert, clearly I just have to do this every time I get JJ.

#resultsoriented #largesamplesize