Here's a classic situation of what to do when an overcard flops. The game is 1/3 with $300 effective stacks.

I open to $20 (standard in this game) with JhJs, loose-passive Asian V1 calls in UTG+1 and LAG V2 calls in LP.

Flop ($60): Kc6s4s

I x, V1 bets $60, V1 calls.

Hero?

I call.

Turn ($240): Kh

I x, V1 bets $120, V2 jams for $220 total.

Hero?

Snap fold

Agree on fold. Unfortunately 2 V’s showing that much interest in the pot, plus no FE plus no IO if you miracled a J OTR - I think it’s a super standard fold. I think a fold OTF is standard after a PSB and a call.

Just fold the flop.

I agree to fold the flop. After a bet and a call you’re almost certainly facing a K. And your first to act the rest of the way.

Oh yeah and definitely snap fold the turn.


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Alright, looks like everyone is agreeing with my line and this was actually just weird spew from Villains.

This seems like a pretty wild game, so we can think about calling flop and stacking off on what is a good turn card for us

Or looked at another way, if we call the flop why would we fold this turn unless villains play on turn is conpletely transparent (ex check gives up all hands worse than kx)

I'm assuming we're UTG?

In almost all games I would just limp in this spot, especially with a laggy difficult player in LP. If it limps around, whatever, if I flop a set I attempt to play as large as pot as possible postflop and otherwise play cautiously with an overpair (or simply check/fold multiway with an overcard). If someone raises then I evaluate whether a limp/reraise is better than a flat (depending on who raises from where and how many callers / dead money). I think limping just gives us so many better different options and gets us into far easier to play (and thus profitable) spots. If everyone is straightforward face-up ABC and a raise will often narrow the field, I'd be a lot more fine with it; but obviously that isn't the case or else we would have a trivial fold on the flop/turn and yet it seems we don't. I will be outvoted by a *large* margin on this.

I'm either/or on the flop. We could be best and have a vulnerable hand plus could get paid off by worse so cbetting isn't horrible. With the lag in the hand we're also cool with checking and see if he attempts to drive the bus (although we will be put into difficult later street spots). With a passive guy potting it and the other guy calling, I probably just check/fold. Again, this goes back to preflop. Against a straightforward line-up, you can simply raise and then comfortably check/fold these flops or whatever; but if players are difficult to the point where we're not comfortable folding, then I would question why we're bloating pots preflop OOP for them to steal / make our life difficult.

I likely don't make it to the turn but I check/fold again. Just too much action in a 3way pot to be likely we're any good.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I’m limping pre UTG a good 80+% with JJ in 100 big effective games in which 7x raises get plenty action.

I lot of good insights and sound reasoning from Gobbledygeek, and at many small stakes tables, I could see this being profitable. I wouldn't argue with an approach that works for you, but I prefer to raise more than 60% UTG and limp the other 40%. I wouldn't always want to give a cheap look at the flop for hands with one over card, like suited aces or kings.

As long as you play reasonably well post flop, you should be able to pick off a LAG's bluff often enough to make the raised pot work for you rather than against. You'll be getting out early, giving up a small pot when you're beat on the flop and winning a bigger pot when you catch him bluffing.

If you win the hand at showdown with an over-pair, the pot will also be bigger: I agree with being cautious, maybe betting 1 or 2 streets- but occasionally 3 streets! Against a very weak opponent and a confident read, you can stack him. That wouldn't be possible without the pre-flop raise: getting him married to the pot with just top pair and allowing the river shove to be about the size of the pot.

I appreciate your argument, but I would counter by saying there’s probably equal value in being “hidden strong”, more fold equity with smaller psr’s should you take a bluff line, and your opponents ranges are more well defined in their actions vs a limp...

Also, in general, best spots big pots (bsbp) and I just don’t include JJ UTG as being a best spot in the type of game OP described.