Had a crappy session but I think I played well and this is the only hand I really questioned afterwards , though I feel pretty confident my thought process was correct but figured I'd post anyway.

Hero ($250-275) - losing image , no real showdowns but 2 or 3 flop bet/folds. I did show down KK after getting ai on the turn and getting sucked out on but I don't think either villains had sat yet.

Villian 1 - covers , only been at the table for an hour , has the Internet grinder look to him , playing fairly tag , no showdowns yet , only thing I noticed was he made a large raise from sb got 2 callers and bet/folded nearly pot on a dry q-high flop , so nothing of real relevance.

Villian 2 - covers , older man but sure doesn't play like one. I guess he is bordering bad lag and maniac. Min 3bet like 5 hands his first orbit but has slown down with pf aggression. Wild post flop constantly putting a lot of chips in the pot aggressively. Will re-raise flops with just about any draws (gutter oesd flush draw) , makes large flop re raises sometimes just shoving 2-300 over a 25 bet. Has played multiple hands blind , betting multiple streets w/out looking at his hand. Drunk , talkative and actually very fun/entertaining to play with.

Preflop

Villian 2 straddles 5 utg , folds to villian 1 in mp who raises to 17 , hero calls JJ in the sb , villian 2 calls 12 more

Flop (45$ish after rake)
8 - 4 - 5 , two diamonds

Hero?

I think this is a standard lead with the intention of getting it in vs villian 2

I dislike checking because the pfr isn't going to bet bluffs/whiffed high cards on this wet of a board with such a massive fish in the hand so when it checks to him and he bets were mostly looking at a value range and combo draws , so c/call is just going to have us clueless on turns and I can't imagine c/r being good since again I think vs his get it in range we will be crushed by any made hand he has and flipping vs almost all his drawing hands.

So yeah prob super basic hand just want to make sure in thinking about this spot right.

I would have led basically any hand here that I'm willing to go to the felt with vs villian 2 here , and tbh I don't know if I even have a 3bet range pre as I don't want to push villian 2 out of the pot.

So assuming my thought process is on point what sizing do u prefer to lead here ?

V1 raised to $17. Why on god's green earth are you not 3-betting here?

JJ has a lot of value especially against these villains so you should be wanting to get more money in the pot. 3-bet to $50

As played on the flop....

Normally, I'm not a fan of going for the check raise, but this is a good spot to do it in. Between the two V's you describe, one of them is going to bet flop and then we can c/r. Reason I like a c/r here is that we've under repped our hand, the board is wet and V is likely to over value his hand and put us on the flush draw. I'd imagine V1 will c-bet around $30, so then I'd c/r to about $90 and would be comfortable stacking off on flop if he came OTT. Usually villains fold to c/r but the maniac (V2) will probably call down with a wide range and may even raise our 3bet (never know what a maniac will do).

Basically, our goal is to get as much money in the pot...

Playing it fast and betting 2/3 pot on each street isn't a bad line

Going for the c/r and then trying to get it in on turn is fine as well

In this spot, i'd go for a c/r with the goal of getting it all-in on the turn

^ i like that line and thought process, but if we are going to lead id go w 25-35ish

*grunch* (that's right, djiharris, i'm ignoring your post until i've grunched)

at first i did'nt like not 3 betting, but you do want to be in the pot w/ V2 in the straddle.
he might be live enough to call the 3 bet, so maybe a smallish 3 bet, or a min raise even?
then again, it's good to take what you are being offered, and w/ V1's profile, you are way ahead of his range.
with a losing image, you may get action from him, if you play it really fast, and make a huge raise PF, and bet the rest in the dark.
you get looked up by some really funky s#*yt this way, and youre commited if overcards hit anyways. his call PF was unprofitable anyways, even if you get outflopped.
*of course, this is dependant on V1s' tendancies; in general, ive found transitioning online players to way overvalue 88-99, and to always range live villians way too light. *they always run into the blade, and end up looking at QQ min.*
As played, i really don't care for this flop for you hand, and V2 being wide open in a cheap pot. I would procede with caution, and not be looking to get it in anymore, unless the action suggests that you are good.
i would check here nearly always, i don't want to get more $ in yet, and i want to see what develops. If it's a bet and a raise, and it's back to you, you now have the equivalent of 22.
w/ a SPR of @5.5:1, you don't want to give up on the pot, but it's a bad spot to be bet/folding, imo.
any bet at this point commits you, so i would hold off. against V1, you are happy to jam it w/ this SPR, but w/ V2 in the mix, it's becoming a little awkward.
there are a lot of bad turns, and you are beating exactly 99/TT, and thats it, as far as hands you are getting action from, and even an over and a flushdraw doesnt put you in great shape, and it puts villian in a spot where he knows where he's at when he hits, and you won't. he can stop putting in $ when he misses, and you won't be able to avoid putting more in when he hits, and we are too shallow to be making good laydowns. betting to 'protect' vs. overcards is bad poker when youre mostly getting action when youre behind or flipping, and is bordering on spew.

>>>betting the flop is basically a delayed 3 bet, while giving villians a free preview of the flop.<<<

If you want to play this flop as played fast vs. 2 players, one of which has ATC, you should have
1] narrowed the field to one villian PF; this eases our positional disadvantage being OOP vs. 1 player, and not 2.
2] got in more $ PF, making the hand easier to play, and the decisions for villian tougher.

Grunching ...

Do you have Jd?

As played, bet $40, fold to V1 raise if you have Jd.

PF - 3-bet to $40.

Does having the Jd really change much with regards to getting it in? If we have it he has a few less combo's of fd+overs but at the same time it will improve our equity vs his made hand range that beats us.

Why 3bet and isolate ourselves vs a good player? To take it down pre? Shouldn't there be a lot of $ to be made by the super whale in the hand? I can't imagine I'm doing very well if I get 4bet. Like i said in my OP i would flat AA here also because i don't want the bad player to be able to get away preflop (he's defending his straddle here nearly 100% of hands imo based off his play but his range of hands to defend if i 3bet is going to shrink dramatically since he only has $5 invested)...

Playing with stove i'm actually not as far behind vs V1 cbet - continue range (60/40 dog and about 50/50 with his entire cbet range) as i thought in game , but this is assuming he stacks off with any over pair , flush draw + overs and any combo draw (straight+fd/pair+fd)

The problem is i think this flop will check through wayyyyyy to much and if it goes check/check/bet/raise i think the fish will fold a ton of hands he is continuing with if i just go ahead and take initiative and bet.

action went Hero bet $27 , Villian 2 raises $120 (yayyyy-prob had a visible boner at this point) , Villian 1 shoves $500 (boo) . I folded obv

^
I was thinking more in terms of HU, i.e. V2 folded. If we have the Jd it is less likely FDs are raising, thus we can fold to the V1 line.

K ya having it will exclude stuff like AJdd/KJdd/QJdd/J10dd. Problem is I don't remember if I did indeed have the Jd.

the more i think about it, just calling, esp OOP, PF is uber bad w/ stack sizes. deeper you may have a better case for flatting PF, esp vs. a player who can play post (V1)
you only want to flat call when you know you are getting it HU.
w/ V2s profile in the straddle, that's never happening unless you raise,
and if he calls the raise, fine, he's making an unprofitable call.
As it is, just calling allows him to make a profitable play with a lot of his playable hands.
(straddling UTG was unprofitable, but at this point he's getting a discount, and i like his implied odds)

it was late, and i think i must have misread the HH earlier. the flop isnt that coordinated, actually. there are some pair/gutter combos to get action from.(a lot of these hands arent outside of V1s opening range, but either is 76.)
still, i would play in flow if i made the mistake of not raising and taking the initiative PF,
and check it, especially now that we are in a multiway pot, and just because we are ahead of V1s range doesnt mean that he doesnt have AA/KK/QQ.
he just has more combos of hands that have us nutted than 99 and TT.

as played, which may or may not be worth even thinking about, because i think you want to avoid these kind of spots, i think bet folding is bad here because of the stacks.
not the folding part, but setting ourselves up to fold when the pot is very close to the size of our remaining stack. when you end up doing this, you made a mistake earlier in the hand.

I really don't see merits of 3betting.

-we push the fish out of the hand
-we narrow original raisers range to one that has us crushed
-I fully expect villian 1 to fold any pair we beat along with broadway hands (except ak)
-I don't think 3bet-get it in will be profitable as he likely only goes with QQ+ak
-I expect villian 1 to fold or ship pre , given his play to this point I highly doubt he will cold call a 3bet for 20%+ effective stacks
- we severely narrow the fishs preflop range

Now if villains switched spots (fish is pfr) I would 3bet without question since
A- I'm comfortable getting all in pre vs him (he felted aq off vs a 3bet so I imagine he goes the distance with 99/1010
B- he will flat call the rest of his opening range which I dominate. I'd never expect a raise/fold

I also expect him to squeeze (for value in his mind) his straddle with a lot of medium pairs and Broadway's

Sorry if this comes off over defensive that's not my intention , I'm only laying out my thought process. Like I said Im not sure if I have a 3bet range at all in this spot. Many training videos I watch suggest when facing an ISolation raise of a fish (which we can treat this as) we should
A- widen the range of hands we play as we can expect pfr to play fairly honest with a massive fish involved and
B- narrow our 3bet range if not eliminate it all together
C- given a (pfr playing more honest) we can more often deviate from "flow" (as in standard being check to the raiser) since he will cbet much less and we can just play our hand for value vs the spot.

How often does Villian 1 show down AA,KK or QQ in this spot?

If you play aggressively, you are'nt worried about not getting action, especially in a spot like this in a straddled pot.
this is very negative thinking, imo, and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
both Vs are relative unknowns, right?
that means you are an unknown. If they sense you are aggressive even for a tiny sample, and capable of squeezing, you are going to be getting action, don't worry about it.

theres no 'correct play', and theres obv merit to your points, but i just think that the main objective of getting in a lot more money when you are ahead and OOP, and getting Vs pot stuck when it's unprofitable for them is going to outweigh those considerations. not raising because you fear they arent calling lacks some logic. they never call when you dont raise, so what are you giving away??
unless they have you pegged for a rock, which isnt the case, and they are interested, they are prolly continuing, and dont count out V2 in the straddle.

why not bet 1/3-1/2 your stack PF, and put the rest in blind before the flop is dealt? it looks like AK, which they love to put you on, or it looks weak to a live player. they equate aggression with FOS for some reason?
it puts them in the position to make the mistake, instead of the other way around.

We have to 3 bet pre here for value.

I like a check raise here to see what V1 does as opposed to a donk. He's shown he'll bet fold a flop like this.

Against most other V I just lead.

He bet/folded a dry Q high flop out of position. A world of difference. Betting a whiffed hand here would be terrible IMO so if he bet/folds its likely some medium pair we crush.

What I dont get is how this is a 3bet for value given my read that he's playing fairly tigh solid and gives off the Internet grinder vibe (which I later learned was spot on but at the time of the hand was just a hunch given play/appearance)

To 3 bet JJ for value don't we either need
-his 4bet range to include 1010/AQ so we can stack off
Or
-him to be capable of flatcalling dominated hands (Internet grinder and flatting a 3bet ghat represents 20% of the effective stack doesn't really seem to go well together)

Vs the vast majority I agree we can 3bet for value but in this particular spot I still wouldn't given villian 2's presence.

And to the question about how often he has AA KK QQ if ur asking preflop then rarely given sheer combinations of other pairs broadways Axs and sc he could open with.

I think you are leveling yourself a bit. You think V1 isn't willing to c bet 854 in middle position 3 ways after he raised pre? That type of flop gets c bet a ton by pre flop raisers.

I think it's 3 bet/fold vs a V1 pre. We aren't looking to stack off necessarily. We are looking to make him pay to continue with his Ax, suited connector type of preflop raising hands.

My read is decent likely Internet grinder. Do u think calling 25bb 3bets (or better way to put it considering the straddle is 20% effective stack) is a good play? Personally I think it's a pretty poor play and while most live players recreational or regulars call 3bets way to wide given how big opens are , this was a player I felt wouldn't make that mistake , but clearly my read could be wrong.

To me if we 3bet it's to capitalize on dead money (as he should fold a large % of his opening range) but it isn't for value or as a bluff.

But the most important factor to my decision to flat is because why on earth do I want to narrow what will be atc range to a 15-20% range of a player who has no qualms putting it in bad post flop (villian 2 the fish)

854dd is a terrible flop to cbet Air with IMO , even moreso vs a crazy aggressive fish. This seems pretty basic flop texture type thing.

Given my read u expect villian to peel a 3bet with speculative hands? I didn't but maybe I'm wrong. But like I said a bunch villian 1 isn't my target and not a "spot" so to say , it's villian 2 we want to play a pot with.

maybe "terrible flop to cbet air" is a overstatement but it's a flop i expect pfr to play pretty honest on for the most part given presence of fish , and it terms of wetness it's pretty darn wet and he's just never folding out a pair with a cbet there , not to mention maniac villian loves to c/r any draw (and has no qualms calling it off)

another hand , which may or may not be relevant , i never added it because i forget the exact action as i got up for some free peanuts lol , but im pretty sure it went Villian 1 raise pre , villian 2 (maniac) call , villian 1 cbet K10x 2 flush board and maniac c/ships and villian 1 snaps him with JJ and is against either a gutter or oesd that doesn't bink....(keep in mind its terribly obvious the maniac is here to donate and play wild , so i don't expect him to get it in as thinly vs me or basically anyone else at the table )

another hand with maniac that may be relevant is how he played a flopped 2 pair , it limped 7 way and he made a $7 raise out of the BB and than bet $7 into like a $40 pot and bet/3bet all in with 2 pair. I'm like 100% sure he c/r a draw and never just outright bets them , though he will bet flopped 2pair + , as far as what he does with 1 pair/overpair kind of unsure.

also some non relevant info that i gained afterwards from bull****ting with villian 1's buddy for a good half hour in the smoke room is they are in fact online grinders (though MTT , at least the dude i was chatting with is primarily mtt player) and he posts on 2p2 , so i assume his buddy does to so i know im beating a dead horse trying to prove that im correct but since everyone thinks 3betting is for value how about this

Say villian one posted this same hand , from his perspective

Maniac Straddles UTG $5, folds to HERO (villian 1) in MP with , say AJo or 99 raises $17 , folds to SB who 3bets to $50 , maniac folds HERO does what?

My instinct tells me everyone would say fold , so than i ask why do we assume an "internet grinder type" would be the type to peel large 3bets light (large relative to stack sizes)

I understand my read isn't concrete given it's an hour of play but the fact is it turned out to be right and my assumption is 90% of you guys would of formed the same read (mostly coming in for a raise , cbetting , playing fairly tight , looser IP , and what gave it away the most was just his appeareance , kind of on the nerdy college kid side , ipod with earbuds in , very quiet , paying close attention to the game , etc)

Anyways i know i came here to ask advice so im not trying to come off as a know it all I just still disagree and i think I've raised some very valid points , and the truth is main decision factor for me to flat is the presence of the fish left to act. He routinely calls raises blind without looking so in this spot I feel he defends his straddle near 100% whereas we greatly reduce that number with a 3bet and to me 3betting JJ vs said villian is very thin in the first place and while having inititive is great I'd much rather play a 3 way pot with a huge donater instead of play a 3bet pot vs a decent thinking player who's "flat a 3bet range" is going to be fairly tight (not to mention i'd expect him to trap some % of the time so we end up to the flop with like 1.5 spr and were just never going to be folding an overpair and it's prob correct to get it in on almost any flop for that matter.

I guess i mainly thought most would agree with preflop action and it was postflop that i thought would rile up the most discussion btu i guess not , which is also fine.

and don't get me wrong i can fully understand why most want to 3bet , live players , even regs (who i assume were never online grinders) , peel 3bets way to liberally , especially when you take into consideration that original open raise sizes are so big , so most of the time we can happily 3bet for value , but IMO even vs those kind of villians , unless there huge spots i feel it's a mistake when theres a big fish just dying to "make moves" left to act.