Cool, so we have a place now!

Have been playing with the villain several hours now. I have been in "take it easy" mode most of the night, not playing a lot of hands and instead enjoying talking with other players. When I have been in hands I have been hyper agro, only making it to shown down once with a missed 3 barrel bluff that turn out to be good.

Villain is a young semi pro college student that supports himself with poker. He is a thinking and smart player. He has been pretty active and has made some wonderful plays.

1/2NL eff stacks ~300BB

Preflop: MP open limps (like he has done all night, he has a target on his forehead in this game), folds to me on the BTN where I open for $20 with ATC (I think I had Kx, but not sure, wasn't paying to much attention to cards at this point, just trying to iso MP and take his $20 when he folds to my c-bet on the flop like 90% of the time), villain in the SB hesitates and cuts out enough for a raise, shuffles them and, then calls, everyone else out and we HU to the flop.

Flop: ($44) 834; villain thinks for a second, slides his fingers up a stack and then checks, I fire $40, villain RR to $80...

Fold, re-bluff or float?

Key points...

Villain is a thinking player, is playing lower than his normal stakes (3/5-500 spread). Villain knows me by reputation and knows I am a "difficult" player that thinks but hasn't had too much evidence of it this tonight. Should know I have a total and complete disregard for money when playing.

I think the RR size is very interesting... not once did I see him make a min raise all night, his bet sizing was always spot on for the situation before this.

I think the tells PF and on the flop are important too.

Not knowing what 2 cards you are holding and simply trying to take this pot down with a pure bluff is truly the stuff of metagame... some might call it "playing poker." I'm not sure how to approach giving good advice here.

It's really difficult to attempt to interpret villain's actions without having played with him before, but it does look like he could have put you on an iso steal PF and thinks the flop completely missed you. Since the check/minraise can often be so indicative of a huge hand, he could be hoping you'll get scared off of your junk and just fold. So in that case I would consider rep'ing a huge hand yourself and pausing for a good while, counting out your chips and making a good sized 4bet. Floating might work too, but I'd recommend taking a look at your cards first to see if you can actually make a hand, lol All that said, I rarely have this gear in me and would probably just fold.

Curious what other's might be able to add...

People who min-check/raise like their hand, a lot, and it seems you have complete air. I'd lean towards folding and moving on. Seems there are greener pastures at this table.

Re-bluff imo, he knows your range is wide so hes not doing this with a set, gives him too much fold equity, he might be doing this with an 8 which he thinks is good but he will probably fold that

Based on the way you described your dynamic with this villian, I have to believe that he is making a play. I want to interpret the move of shuffling the chips on the flop, pretending to bet, and then checking as him attempting to show strength and prevent you from betting. When you did bet, however, he then attempted to use that strength in an effort to help you lay down your hand. He knows you have been "super aggro" all night so if he really did have a big hand here, he would probably want to c/c at least the flop and possibly the turn in an attempt to get you to bet.

Now, playing in a live, full-ring table and playing heads up online with money that I can easily afford to lose are two very different things. However, the message I am getting from your post, OP, is that you want to re-raise here. Whether or not I could actually do that, I am not sure. However, sitting here on my computer, I can tell you that I think the best play is to make it $200. Most players are not c/r bluffing, however based on your description, I would say that this is a total possibility.

I do not think floating here is a good play. I realize a smooth-call may represent strength, however I feel like it would be more difficult to sell your story if you raise on a later street. We can't assume the villian will check the turn here. I would like to pose OP and the rest of the people who read this post, this question: what line would we take if we did float the flop? How would we proceed the turn if villian made a substantial bet and then another one on the river? How would we proceed if villian did NOT bet the river but bet the turn?

I am curious to see what OP actually did. Hope these comments help.

I think its time to look at your cards!

Doesn't he play a big pair this way too?

This is a "I can't get the cards in the muck fast enough" fold. Your image for tonight is you're playing good cards and not making moves. If he's good, that's what he's think and can't really know that you've decided to switch gears.

The flop completely misses your range in his mind. At best you have an over pair. While he might be a great actor (no read given on this), his actions say he has a big over pair and you have nothing. Without a read he can make a big laydown with an over pair (unusual at 1/2), a bluff is going to be spew.

Sure there's a chance he's making move, but not often enough to make this worthwhile.

Very cool, I am glad to see the quality of the responses! (not joking at all)

I wanted to post a hand that was more about the player dynamics than about strictly the math. I think its import in looking at live hands to have the dynamics considered. While they are not always important, they can be the deciding factor in a given situation. I am very glad to see the group is up to looking at such things and getting it.

Frankly I normally do look at and take my cards very much into consideration. That night a fellow 2+2'er showed up new to town and we had a good talk and I was just not so much in playing.

The villain reads 2+2 but I never did his SN... he might see this and post. Hope your GF likes the new car bro

Anyway here are the spoiler results for those that might want to comment further without seeing results.

re-bluff him. I can see myself attempting a min-raise bluff against you, expecting you to fold.

lol thinly veiled brag.
lol marginal bluff that happened to work out this time, but on average is break even at best

this entire thread is painfully lol.

I think this type of thread is one that critics of the Live Forum like TT dreaded, but I don't hate it at all. Sure, it's difficult to glean any concrete (mathematical) stratigic advice from a discussion of metagame, who's on what level, and god forbid a physical tell or two, but I don't mind it as long as there is discussion of the thought process (however lol) involved.

Negotiating through these sorts of situations takes as much skill as crunching numbers, imo, and is an equaly as important part of the game.

Of course if he is as good as you say, he'd do what I'd do which is tell you I had some garbage hand so you wouldn't know you bluffed him. Anyone capable of doing a false tell during a hand will happily lie to you on a break. T9 is conveniently the worse hand possible against one of your bluffs that is remotely believable to call pf.

I'm not sure I buy that he's trying to top off a down payment on a car so he's playing lower than what he's normally a winning player at, either.

I think your 3-bet sizing is a bit off - I like 180. I think the key to this hand is his physical tells (thanks for telling us). I don't know if this is his routine, but cutting out a raise and touching your stack (I call it jerking off your stack) is generally a sign of weakness. I believe Joe Navarro talks about this in his book. Without this tell, I'm not inclined to re-bluff him because it is a risky play without equity.

I think the best way to play this hand is to follow these 3 steps:

1) Rebluff

2) Make post on the internet about thus revealing the size of your e-peen

3) Sit back and bask in the glory as others acknowledge the size of your e-peen.

Must say I was lightly singed for suggesting the same in another thread.

But I agree. When you are live, you can think about the math, but many of the other players won't be. It is real hard to reason with manics and the unlearned, but you can read them sometimes.

Having said that, I wish it was all about the math, it would make life easier.

Aaarrrggh please do not make posts talking about how its not about the math. If you are thinking about the fundamentals and math behind pot sizes and bet sizes vs stacks and your opponents are not, you have a tremendous advatage over them that really cannot be overcome by any reads (unless you're a massive tellbox).

Wow, I'm a little surprised people get bothered by this kind of post. I love 'em, and I think it's a key part in live games, especially in small player pools. The meta of these games go on for years.

Gotta say you fooled me, but I should've seen it coming. You were playing weak-means-strong with your post.

It's really hard to say unless we're in your head and we know your relationship with your opponent. For a lot of regulars who know me, the whole consideration and min-raise thing would still mean strength, either because they're one level lower or one level higher. That's part of what's so enjoyable (and profitable) about live games.

Nice hand!

Could not have said it better. If it is all about the math, why have this forum at all?? Why not just post a spread sheet or poker calc. ?

If you are willing to throw away all the information you can get live, what good will math do you?

While I agree that it IS about the math, I have to ask...why have this forum, then?

Why does live play so differently than online if it's all about the math?

Why NOT post strat questions that includes player reads? (I don't mean "tells", either)

I am quickly learning to vary my strats based on table image, the villains' images, etc. Sometimes I take lines that I KNOW will work and win me the donk's money which are completely, 100% wrong based on math alone. If we aren't tailoring our play based on reads and image of the villain, then what's the point?

As for the OP, Put me in the same position, I probably would have thought the exact same things you did, knew the guy was bluffing, but folded anyway, because I tend to nit it up against good players. *sigh*

+1

They are a key part of the game because people make ******ed bluffs that are easy to snap off. If the villain called with 77, I suspect we wouldn't have seen this HH.

Oh, and yes I realize this ends my hopes of ever working in the government in a political position.

"leotarded" please.

i think the key in this hand is how many times you have raised on the button. you said atc like you have done this frequently.

If you have raised in this spot often i think the hesitation is him thinking about popping you to take the pot right there. If you havent raised often he may be thinking about reraising with a mid pair like 88, to take down the pot or see where hes at. After the initial call and flop after your c-bet..If you have raised a lot in this spot the min raise is to see where he stands or complete bluff, but if you havent raised often the reraise is him having a set hoping you have a overpair and reshove.

This thread is the perfect example of why pro online players think pro live players are huge effin donkeys. LOL at bet sizing, LOL at the hero play that works 1 in 50 times(given the other player has no pair no draw etc), LOL at your thinly veiled brag and LOL at this whole terrible thread. As a live player, I'm embarrassed. Next time post in BBV...

Are you really trying to make your profits at 1-2 by getting into wars with the best player on the table?

I play 1/2 for fun and to keep my game "fresh" not to make money. I don't mind making money in a 1/2 game, but I would rather have fun, win or lose.