fml your only value is from when he check raises you

I wouldn't say for sure that he is never calling with worse. And we do know its not super likely that he would play a hand that beats us in this way. If we almost always have the best hand we may as well bet at LLSNL even if its incredibly unlikely he will call. Let our opponents make as many mistakes as possible.

The only reason for betting that amount on the river is to induce a c/r.

Personally I'd bet much bigger on the river.

Given your line I'd have to call, but you better be sure of this before betting.

This advice is backwards and dead wrong.

This is very interesting hand to post. It addresses a lot of different elements we need to be aware of at the table; Villains' tendencies, their level of aggression, the table dynamics, opponents and their knowledge of the game, etc. it is not about just making thin value bets, it shows several other factors involved in our decision making process, and it should be a good thread to read for the beginners/ novice played who might wonder what they need to be thinking/ paying attention to while at the table.

To the hand:
Pre flop
The only time I'd 3 bet this pre is when I plan to 5 bet AI if facing a 4 bet. Otherwise, I call and play post flop.

Flop
It is a good flop to float. K high stands to be th best hand most of the time against this type of opponent with such a wide range, and we should be able to to take it away on most turn cards. The only concern is we don't know villain dbl/triple tendencies.

Turn
Turn is a call and a call only. We picked up SD value and don't want to get blown off the pot against a super aggressive monkey.

River

River is what separates winners from crushers. If you are going to v bet this river, you should be willing to stack off agains this opponents since he is definitely capable of c/bluff shoving the river. If the plan is to b/f, it is a check behind.

FWIW I'm definitely betting the river, but I'd rather value bomb it for $175 to rep a missed draw and hopefully get hero-called.

Betting $75 with the intention of snap-calling a raise is ok but it's kinda FPS against a good player. I think a larger bet will show a bigger profit.

i like raising this flop.

we have backdoor draws, an overcard and we can rep club draw/straight draw that we dont have.

If I had read this post before you posted results I would have said your river bet is bluff inducing and vs a player we know can bluff a lot in this spot - is a call. I strongly disagree with the haters who said check the river. Value betting thin on the river and when it could induce a huge mistake when they try to bluff is something I need to work on. If I were in your shoes I would have picked up on everything you did and played the hand the same way except fear of monsters under the bed would have made me check river 90+% of the time even tho it is pretty clear a bet is optimal.

The people who say "check river obviously" then when you reveal that your bet made more sense and profited an extra 55 bbs over their check they say "don't post here to brag and this post is bad and should have a disclaimer" are poisoning a great post and discouraging good strategic thinking.

I fully agree with your line and wish I had the balls to do this move 100% of the time instead of 10%. Furthermore, kudos for making a great post which made me think about the higher strategy in poker - which is why we read this forum so there is no way this post needs a disclaimer!

Firstly, I am the one who said it and I stand by it being the right play

dg,
Thanks for the post. A couple of questions for you:

1) What was your plan if turn and river bricked? In essence, what would you do with K high if villain bet turn and villain bet or check river?
2) What would you do if river was an Ace or a club (and you have a pair of tens)

Thanks

I like flop float -- assuming you're going to rep clubs by shoving OTT or rep weakish Q (Q9-KQ) if V gives up OTT.

I like turn call behind, lets V value-own himself OTR if a blank comes off.

River is super interesting and very problematic -- by betting a little over 1/4 pot your clear vbet is meant to induce, and V's c/r is clearly bluff-value-raising by giving you shyte odds of 1.25:1 that you're never calling. So you obv need to call.

So so so V knows all this and is not bluff-raising; therefore, gots to fold.

Prob leveling myself on the order of iocaine powder in Princess Bride at this point....

EDIT: read results, leveled myself, bummer, nice play all around though, and fantastic look inside the head of two solid LLSNL players!

OP tried to make this post a thinly veiled brag. But it didn't work out. No way you take flop over plays as a river c/r bluffing range.

This is a marginal spot. Now that we know the cards. Not 3betting pre with such a strong hand in HU situations is mistake.

You clearly got lucky he was bluffing otr. Hero calling otr is a recipe for huge mistakes possibly even a leak.

Some edges are not meant to be pushed and this one of them.

My plan on flop was to float once because I know he is cbetting 100% of his range. I was going to crank of my aggression if I turned an A, J, heart, or club so I can set up a river steal realizing I need to be willing to shove for stacks on river to win as this villain was aggro enough to bet big into me on turn or river. If I turned a K or T my plan was to value town V and play for value.

The thing to remember in this spot vs this villain in this circumstance is that air is comprising the MAJORITY of his range and I think that is what most on here just don't get. They also don't get that he is aggro and the typical "bets" aren't working on him and that we have to use our image combined with some serious betting ending in a shove to bluff him off come river.

No PokahBlows, this isn't a brag. The problem I see in LLSNL is that a lot of postings concerning bumhunting, playing vs droolers, or gross mistakes. There aren't a lot of posting concerning battles of two good thinking players.

So, I will occassional post a hand (whether I win or lose) in which the hand plays atypical and highlights a lot of advance poker concepts that a lot of players don't ever get to employ.

In particular, look at how you'd play this hand. You are itching to raise an aggro villain who is capable of bluff shoving you. Similarly, you seem clueless how to deal with a V who has an ultra wide range that you likely dominant. Yes, ABC poker by the numbers is that you raise, but that is not optimal in this situation. With advance poker YOU WANT TO KEEP IN HIS BLUFFS SO YOU CAN EXTRACT MAX VALUE POST FLOP!!!!!

The only way you keep in his bluffs is by flatting pre. ANd I can tell this is a concept you just don't get because ABC poker by the numbers is too strong a default for you to override. Which is fine, that is good against the majority of bums, donks, and droolers... But not so good against thinking players.

And on the river, here is my question for you. How do you extract value from a thinking player in this spot when air comprises the vast majority of his range?

Anyways, this post isn't a brag, but a legit attempt to put some advance play in the LLSNL postings.

I know it may look like FPS but its not.

The key concepts here are:

Knowing when to flat to keep an aggro's range wide and keep him bluffing, Using position, playing vs an aggro V heads up, extracting max value from a V whose range consists majority of air, floating, inducing a bluff, using your image.

Look Pokablows, I put a lot of time and effort into this forum, I've got over 4K posts and have long since gotten over posting my awesome brags. I play 5 days a week and support myself with poker and I owe all this to 2+2 and on occassion I like to try to give back and post hands I think will help the LLSNL community. Anyways, if you still only see this as a brag then whatever.

I disagree with a lot of people here, per against this villain should be a clear 3 bet for value. We have position, we are away Ahead of his range, and he almostly certainly will call since it seems like he likes to play.

Flop is whatever, turn is std, river is check back against this villain. It is really hard for you to have kj here unless it is cc, while he can quite conceivably have the straights. He seems to be capable to make a play.

As played, a check/raise is weird. Given how you played this, check/call would be super standard. Your hand looks like a busted draw, he checked it to you. Why decide to check raise instead of check call. I personally would look him up since there are so few nut hands vs air that needs to raise to win,given why we know about him anyways.

Browsing on iPad and seems like results were posted, I don't see them so this may have actually been what happened, but what would be funny would be if villain turns top pair bad kicker into a bluff. Definitely seems possible and I would really like that play from his side since like I said earlier you have so few possible straights.

You may want to be less certain.

My play around the blinds isn't too different from your opponent's play, and, for me, if I have 2 pair or better in this spot I'm going for a check/raise 100% of the time. Top pair is a huge part of your range, and busted draws comprise a small part of your range also. I would expect you to bet both on the river, and I would expect you to pay me off with a Q.

Thinly veiled?

Lots of people who participate in this forum play for a living... some of us even support ourselves playing just 4 days a week. Perhaps your line is better than what myself and others have suggested. I'm fairly confident about the river line I suggested, but I'm not nearly as confident about it as I am of the following things:

Nobody plays as well as they think they do.
Hubris takes hold where learning stops.

Just my opinion...

In dgi Harris opinion he's never played a hand bad in his life and everything he does is 100 percent optimal. Would u have posted this had u lost the hand? Or not caught a pair on the turn and got blown off the hand on the turn?

I agree that if hero is betting this river to induce a c/r its fine

but some seem to think that the river bet is good for thin value as well, which a disagree w/ just because of image, OP states he has been playing pretty nitty so far so I can't think of any hand villain (assuming he hand reads) is c/c the river with.

Having seen some of your posts I assume your image is such that you can bet this river for value, I am not sure this is the case with the OP in this hand.