1/2 Live in WV Casino

V1 is in SB: African American. 25 yrs old. Ill call him Headphones (as he was wearing them). Been playing with him a while now. Seems to play OK I guess - not a deep thinker type; probably just plays his cards. Calls pre-flop a bit wide and tends to play passive after flop. Only hand he and I were in...he flatted my PF Raise while in SB with A4 off suit.

V2: Maniac in every sense of the word. Has exhibited every trick in the maniac book - $20 straddles, all in blind, Wild raises, outrageous and consistent bluffs. There is no thought on his end...he is playing this like its a blackjack table. He buys in with $60 and just plays it wild until its gone (and he reloads) or it earns $$$. At this point he has made some $$$...

Hero Image: Been getting coolered for about 3 hours straight - V1 has seen me have some good hands and lose to some big ones in cooler fashion. He probably sees me as aggressive but willing to gamble.

Stacks: V1 (headphones)= $275 -- V2 (maniac) and Hero cover at about $300 a piece.

V2 (maniac) straddles for $19...folds to me. I raise to $40 with KT in CO. V1 (headphones) re-raises to $140. V2 (maniac) does a little song and dance and calls (this is still any two cards from this guy).

As I was making my decision the 2 villains were having a little pow-wow and they agreed to check it down...which played into my decision...

I called...is this this the worst call ever? I was getting 3.2 to 1...against maniac who i am ahead of most likely and other villain who probably has me beat but if I do hit I am going to stack. I am probably a 4-1 dog here but not necessarily if he does this with QQ or AKs? And the whole "Ill check it down agreement they had was interesting." Anyhow...I saw the flop...

FLOP: ($420) 889
Everyone checked and they re-affirmed that they would check it down. I said nothing...

TURN: T

Both villains check again to me... WHATS THE PLAY?

you got half your stack in with KT off, turn top pair and aren't sure what to do?

fold pre

as played, GII

Why? You don't think the pot odds, little bit of implied odds and their chatter indicates we should gamble pre-flop? With the maniac in the hand, even if we are a 4.5-1 dog; we are reasonably getting almost 6-1 in implied odds as they will both ship regardless - V1 for what he will believe to be value and V2 as he is just tossing it in regardless.

Am I overthinking the presence and implication of the maniac in this hand? If so, please explain as this is a significant leak i will need to plug. Maniacs always throw me off and get my brain justifying things I dont do normally...but am I wrong - as I also don't want to talk myself out of opportunities if they are actually +EV, in spite of being high variance.

even if you flat the straddle pre you are playing a less than 5 SPR pot with a very marginal hand. dont like raising this, and when V1 3bets you are basically only good when you flop 2pr or better (if V1 plays ok at all he is not 3betting half his stack pre without QQ+/AK) and you definitely dont have implied odds to call. you can't assume that they will both ship the rest in when they agree to check it down.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG 18.72% 18.25% 0.47% { KhTs }
UTG+1 59.81% 59.32% 0.50% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
UTG+2 21.47% 20.97% 0.50% { random }

you are a dog even to V2's completely random hand, assuming he flats this pre with 100% of his range. fold pre. if maniac is playing like you say he is, wait for a much better hand and a much better spot to stack him.

as played, I would feel weird/unsportmanslike shipping my last $160 in here given their agreement to check it down and you not stating otherwise preflop. but sportsmanship in poker is -ev so I guess ship it in since you have tpgk and half your stack is already in. but I expect to lose to a V1 overpair most of the time here unless you river another T.

Definitely fold pre. You're getting half your stack in pre w/ K10 !! If anything, you have reverse implied odds. Are you really going to be confident that if a K comes on the flop that you are going to be good , or if a 10 comes as the high card on the flop that V1 might not have an overpair? You said V1 is passive and may CALL with a wide range pre-flop, but here he raised your raise of a straddle. Why are you talking about the "implication of the maniac" when you say yourself that V1 just seems to be playing his own cards?

Huh? You put in $140 pre with KTo? Were you hoping to be up against K2 and value betting for 3 streets?

I'm ok with te initial raise assuming V2 will call 100% and the others are likely to fold. Calling the 3 bet is kind if outrageous though. That's just awful.

I probably just fold preflop, since I'd want a better hand to go against the maniac's straddle, but I'm a nit. I would raise a little more, probably to $45-50. I'm not in love with min-raising the straddle. I think it looks too weak, so you're not really sure how strongs V2's 3-bet is.

^^^ Fold to the 3-bet.

I would just check it down. Since they agreed to check it down, you really don't know what they have. You could probably get some from value from the maniac if he has a 9 or a weaker 10, but I don't think V2 is calling you unless you're beat. I would just feel silly betting and have the maniac turn over an 8 or V2 turn over KK.

This.

As played (which I never would) I'd just check it down with them. You are really only scared of an A, Q and maybe a J, and you could be way behind regardless. Builds camaraderie at the table, too.

Fold to 3b obviously.

As played shove turn.

Wait for better spots with REAL implied odds against maniac

If your going to play this hand in this manner just ship the flop for fe...
Dont call the three bet

Pre flop is possibly the worst play I've ever seen posted on this forum. Lighting money on fire doesn't even begin to describe how bad calling the 3bet is. This is the highest level of fishy play.

Lmao! I like it. I certainly knew when I posted this hand that I would be thrashed up - but the worst on the forum...that is nice baby!

I think I disagree with everyone though. Dont get me wrong, I will continue to think about this in depth but I am not sure you all are considering everything.

I think you all are putting V1 (headphones) on KK or AA and calling it a day. KT is certainly not something to have a love affair with for sure...BUT...here is the thing I am not sure you all are considering...or at least not fully -

The maniac called. He is going to push here with anything remotely pretty (suited hands, anything with aces, kings, queens, jacks, any pp, etc). His calling range here is all the crap left over.

V1 probably has QQ+, AK, AKs...but he is an OK player and has been seeing me lose all night and getting coolered, etc. I have been playing aggro and isolating the maniac here and there (one of these isolations ended up being a big hand and one of the aforementioned coolers). I would not discount him doing this with 99+ and AQs/ AQ.

With the maniacs calling range being crap; the headphone villain doing this a bit wide due to my image; the fact that they are "checking it down;" and the pot odds pointing to us needing better than about 23% equity to make the call, seems very close to me!

Now with all that said, this becomes a problem of what will V1 do this with. Sure...if you lock him on on AA its "the worst call in the history of 2+2 forums." But if he does this with a wider range it may be a marginal call but since its "check down from here" and if I hit a monster I can free roll and get more $$ (i never agreed to their check down).

After plugging it into equity calculator using ranges like this:

Headphone Villain: QQ+,AQs+,AQo+ (I actually think he may do this wider but...)

Maniac Villain (again this range takes out all of the shoving hands he looks at and says "well ok boys...lets gamble." --
77-22,J7s-J2s,T7s-T2s,96s-92s,86s-82s,75s-72s,62s+,52s+,42s+,32s,A6o-A2o,K9o-K2o,Q9o-Q2o,J9o-J2o,T8o-T2o,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+,42o+,32o

Crunch that and we have an overlay!!! not a big one mind you but a small one nonetheless. If we do add JJ, TT, 99 to the possible V1 hands we have more of an overlay.

So...I hope you all consider my points and give thoughtful feedback before snap-judging and claiming the worst call in the history of 2+2 LOL...I am an equity lover. If I have a small pinch of it in a cash game...I am calling! This hand comes down to evaluating what V1 does this with IMO. If I am correct in my assessment of his range here then this is a +EV call...

OK, maybe not the worst call in the history of 2+2, but in the top five.

(Pushing pre-flop would have been better -- top 10.)

You think you stack them both if you hit a pair? You're more likely to be the one getting stacked when you hit

I dont need to stack them.

I cant believe I am the only one in this thread who sees (albeit small) potential +EV here.

Is there anyone here who can see this?

1. The V's are checking down which makes this decision easier as I do not have to not worry about any more betting! And if I do hit 2 pair I can bet
(again as I told them I am not agreeing to this check down) and they will call and probably stack them both - in this case its a freeroll to for implied odds!

2. Seeing 5 cards, We need 23% equity against these guys range to make it +EV -- even if you use QQ+,AQs+,AQo+ for V1 we are ahead!

Yes in all likelihood at this moment we are behind V1 but we ONLY NEED 23% to break even. And we have more than that.

If your whole argument hinges on the idea that you are putting V1 on KK+ and AKs then sure its -EV...but with a maniac at the table and my image of being gambler-ish aggressive, do you really think V1 only does this with those hands?

If I am the only one in my camp, that's fine, but I sincerely think this is a +EV scenario...I do agree its thin, but I think its +EV given all of the variables...

But maybe I am an island

This, I seriously spit out my drink in laughter.

I also think OP interprets "being coolered" as his TPGK being beat by TPTK.

EDIT: It is also hilarious that he thinks poker players always tell the truth... LMAO

I don't think you can put headphones villain on that wide of a 3bet range unless you have seen him 3bet AQ before. And even then, this is not a normal 3bet, its a 3bet to half of his stack pre.

Doubt V1 is 3betting too wide OOP when he knows he's likely to get called in 1-2 spots. You have no reason to believe he's 3betting something like AQ other than wishful thinking.

How do you know they'll stick to checking it down? Especially when you overcall.

Lol this

K10 is terrible you could be dominated twice over one guy could have AK the other could have JJ. There is no +. EV to be seen here. You honestly shouldn't even of raised pre flop. You have put in half ur stack with a weak K and are trying to justify it by saying there is some + EV there.
Have you actually stoves ur hand vs a realistic range? Like 99+ and AQ plus?

OP, I appreciate that you're using ranges and figuring out equity. That puts you ahead of many posters. That said, you need to go back and study more about RIO hands. Unless you flop 2 pair, who is going to pay you off for the risk you are taking? It either of them can't beat TP, they're folding. On the other hand, if you have TP and the villain betting into you, are you happy? Losing your stack in that situation to AK isn't getting coolered.

The first raise is fine but calling after that is a disaster.

Yes. And thank you for asking...
I would really like to see someone get this other than me, honestly.

Many of you are so hung up on "wow this dude just called off his stack with KT offsuit...that just screams terrible." If someone would just plug in the numbers it is very close.

Its not a RIO scenario - it is a STRIAGHT POT EQUITY VS RANGE SCENARIO. Assume for this problem they actually will do as they say and will check down (you'll just have to take my word for this. They've been doing it various times tonight and I know the 2 guys. They are checking down. Assume this is a given for this problem). The only way I am getting more $$$ in is if I hit flop extremely hard, otherwise I am in there with them checking down. So treat this as an AI scenario that we need to call $100 pre-flop with KT off suit...please. Otherwise if your whole argument is based on whether these 2 villains are being genuine about their little check down agreement then this discussion is pointless, as I wouyld agree this would be a fold if the check down agreement is not there...cool? Now with that...

Do this for me...humor me...

1. Plug in the range you spoke of in the quote (99+ and AQ plus)
2. PLug in our hand
3. Give maniac 100% of cards THEN (and this is critical) you will need to take out the top 25% or so because he pushes all in with those - remeber he is acting before us, and he just called. If has anything REMOTELY handsome he is smiling and putting his stack in.
4. Hit evaluate and let the thing run its course...(even stove doesn't like this initially...but if you let it get to 100% of its thinking about it, it gets there
5. Tell me what that number is!

Is it greater than what we need to get our $$$ in, assuming no more betting? - and that number btw is 23.8%

If so...we get it in and check down (unless we flop a monster). Someone come to the dark side with me...you know as ugly as it is, this call is correct if you take the time to do the math.

Has anyone been 3b the maniac to iso on this table? If not, then the KT raise to iso is a good move. But is sucks having V1 3b. Fold it.

As played, **** yes gii. Looks like V1 had AK or AQ.

We got to raise here to iso this maniac. This is why llsnl grinders table change so much. If they aren't in a hand, they are looking around the room to find the maniac spew whale just for this purpose. The only people that are going to recognize the isoing is other grinders and MAYBE regulars.

If you put half of your stack in with KT off because you are getting approximately the right odds, you are just playing bingo at this point. Really, just pick up your chips and play basic strategy black jack and you will do about the same.

Obv. V1 has AA