so we all know the sb is very difficult to play and on average everyone loses money. The problem is that you are holding the second best hand and should be playing for stacks 99.99% of the time at 120 bigs. If everyone folds its fine. There's plenty of hands ofcourse that you beat and will still give you action like AK/QQ/JJ. And no you cant make this play with any two cuz sometimes ppl trap and sometimes OR has the nuts, so you use good blocker hands to the nuts when 3bet bluffing. Also no you cant flat every pair outta the sb in all situations, you should barely have flats outta the sb. Your strategy to flat can make sense in a tourney like situation where the short blinds will often jam but even then you are inviting more variance to the hand. You wanna go headsup or three ways.

IMO your river fold is a bigger mistake than your preflop flat because of the short blinds. You are at the top of your range, have WAY underrepped your hand on every street but the flop, AND he has checked turn/blocked river. There is one Q left on the deck but plenty of other hands that can bet for value. Even if you folded and he showed the Q, the advice would still be to AT LEAST call everytime if this scenario occurred 100 times.

this thread has turned into an ego war as usual and that is to be expected. Understand that there will be harsh criticism no matter what BUT especially so when you carry extreme unconventional ideas which you dont care abt questioning. No one here cares enough about attacking you for the sake of just trolling. It is the extremely flawed strategy you are applying that is creating equally extreme reactions.

Quite fun thread.

No kidding now, flatting pre is ok will make you some money because it's KK, but SQZ makes you more money, on the river unless you have a huge read you just can't fold, else what are you going to pay with, only quads? You mentioned math so you have to defend sometimes else he just prints money betting here.

The discussion got side tracked quite fast, so did you have a good reason to fold or was more like one of those moments that we don't know what to do and do a random action?

Also you can make money from the small blinds with good hands, you lose overall because most of the times you fold the 0.5bb you paid, but you can def make money playing from SB, usually we have very little to no flat in SB basically because you don't want to play a capped range.

I apologize for my prior sacarstic comment and wish you a great year ahead.

Another thing is, man if you are playing this high and have these fundamentals leaks in your game, in my humble opinion, you would MAKE much more money by buying a coaching package with some good live player that you like, playing 1 or 2 stakes lower and actually having way higher chances of being a reasonable winning player. I belive you have the roll to play even higher but when talking about competing we should be good assesing our place in food chain to avoid feeding the sharks for some unrational reason.

Getting back to serious commentary on this thread, at least from me, I'd think that flatting would be the LAST thing I'd think to do here pre. I KNOW that I'm raising, I just have to figure out sizing. Personally, I'd go with the 4x + 1x per caller, so something close to 500 would be fine. I agree that 300 likely gets multiple, if not universal, calls.
If you choose something in between, then the 400 range should be good. Nonetheless, this spot must be raised.

The only discussion pre is to what sizing is optimal , anything else (ex: flat calling) is just extremely bad.

And obviously river is a huge blunder especially with the player description.

Flop is an overplay but it doesn’t even compare to the preflop and river blunders.

Sorry to say this but the 5/10/25 game probably revolves around you.

Agreed, I mentioned flatting because is not -EV flatting, just much much worse than raising, I should have reiforced that statmente.

good post

we wish we could get stacks in but we can't, what we want to happen is go against UTG heads up but it's just not going to happen, JJ is mucked, QQ is a tough decision, AK is mucked but we block those, so basically a reraise only gets stacks in vs AA

i think this could be a great thread, this is a high stakes monster pot that went to showdown, so to say there isn't anything to learn here is a crime against poker imho, i did not post it to brag, i literally would have forgotten about this hand if the case Q did not hit the river but looking back i have no doubt what he had and in fact, i can tell you what his likely kicker was, and in fact, there is enough information in the hand to pin point UTGs hand as JJ exactly this particular hand but also a hand value equal to that exact hand

I will read through the rest of the posts and try and discuss but i do believe i played this hand extremely well looking back in retrospect

You guys can see KK but I see 35% equity OOP at this particular moment

consider:

KK has 35% equity, AA has 50.1%, so KK pf is actually a low pair in this scenario.

Take a look at the following equities

AA 50.1%
KK 35%
QQ 29%
83o 17%

see how closely these equities actually run together?

what i see is people looking at their cards but those cards translate to percentages and i see 35% equity pre and 0% OTR

keep it coming

thanks a lot for sharing your opinion, it helps everyone

After four pages your summary is you nailed the hand, “thanks for posting but I already knew the answer. You all are wrong, all 20 of you, but I love thatt you are posting in my thread. Keep on going. Great posts”

There is 1% equity on you believing anything you said in here, and it not being one big troll

If it is the one outer……a real thread…..its not

it's fine to be wrong Larry

i just thought of my mistake in this hand. I had cards to use as a bluff. if a low diamond hits the river he can't call with Qx. I should look like i have a combo diamond draw, so i should have not checked out on the turn. I should be asking the poker gods for a low diamond but we actually have 4 more cards to use as a bluff.

So there, i made a mistake in the hand. I should have hoped for a low diamond or ace to bluff because his exact hand is Q9s

we actually have enough information to pinpoint his EXAXT 2 cards if anyone wants to know, how i can explain further but...

UTG actual hand value pre flop is JJ, it actually doesn't matter what he actually has, you can play against UTG and assume he has JJ exactly 100% of the time, it's odd that he actually had that hand but I was already thinking JJ pre flop because that's his average hand value once i looked at my cards

you guys may call that blockers but i call it the quantum...the act of looking at KK in my hand reduced his hand value from QQ to JJ

you raised to 500 and won 340 pre flop and this is not a thread

other players raised to 300 and it's called in 4 spots

one of the players went in-between and went 400, which actually happens to be the correct sizing, i could have done that, but notice how it's actually not as important as the river and here is why

so we have this

Player A raises to 500 and wins the pot every time UTG doesn't hold AA, those times we lose 80%, so your actual winnings are slightly lower than 340, say you average 325 every time you make it 500

The fundamental theorem of poker tells us that this is 0ev

Player B raises to 300 and gets called in all spots and gets our flop this flop

pot is 1500, you bet slightly over half pot or down bet as you are blocking the draw say 1/3 of pot, lets go 500, top pair calls

pot is 2700

player C raises to 400, UTG calls and the others have a tough spot but you get 1 caller perhaps just the button flats

pot is 1400, you bet 600, get one caller pot is 2700

player D flats, check raises the flop to 900, gets a call, pot is 2200

still the same hand, with roughly the same ev, so did pre flop actually matter here?

This hand was never even played. There is nothing to be wrong about. The entire thread is a figment of your imagination

notice that player A can gain a big advantage if he used 12 combos of 83o as his bluff combos, he wins the 340 every time UTG does not have AA, you can only "win" by having a bluff combo to KK, you are doing something that no one else is doing and sucking money off the table and "winning"

This man is smg else

let the thread die if it's not poker related please, that's all i ask, otherwise i don't care about one hand

thanks man, i appreciate that

there is no way to make money off this hand, the only hand that will show a profit long term is AA, that's why KJs is in the muck, we only call pairs here, what to do with AK? i haven't the foggiest idea but flatting AJs plus seems ok i guess

the reason we don't actually fold pairs too is because when we hit a sit we can win back some of all that money we lost, and if we don't do that another person will, but flatting pairs here still loses it just loses less

not saying we shouldn't raise it pre flop, like i said the main reason i flatted is because i couldn't think of a sizing but i think everyone can agree that 300 and 500 are not correct and the sizing better be accurate

we need an unusual sizing when we do raise but....

pre flop didn't matter as much as the river. if you called and lost to quads you lost the 800 in the hand and if he didn't have quads i lost, nobody won anything pre, we get here in different ways but keep the pot size the same as if we raised it in order to realize all of our eqiuty

It’s hard to discuss any complex strategy if you think you can’t make money outta the sb unless you hold AA. Do u not ever 3bet pre then?
There’s no doubt that you will get action from JJ+,AQs,AK.
If you are set mining with KK then you need to go down the stakes asap. Cumulative equity doesn’t matter here because 90% of the time you go heads-up eagerly waiting to put the rest of your chips in.
Instead of focusing on the fact that he had quads and you saved 2k this hand, you need to focus on the fact that you lose 1k each time by set mining big pairs outta the sb

Cheers man, hope you get in good the next time! Hire someone to help you if you feel best way to improve.

This. Is like the fifth time hes posted the same thing. This is his thing. To troll the thread into thinking he is serious. Im shockec at the. Number of posters still giving this thread the benefit of the doubt like it is real that he thinks KK is unprofitable from any position.

KK from the sb in this spot is not going to be profitable because it's 35% OOP whereas AA is 50.1%, i didn't make this stuff up, there are tools to find this equity, wonder what the solvers say? don't trust me....look it up yourself,

Against 4 players, we might be drawing dead to a split!

vs 4 players it's probably around even money but idk. there's not tools out there to run equities with that many players

that being said here are the ranges

UTG Top 8%
UTG2 is going to play all his sc and low gapper
MP1 wierd how he had exact hands he should flat with and that's suited Qs, middle connectors low pairs, suited aces
BTN very wide could be 60% of hands, all Ax hands

this is not a trivial spot, it hardly ever happens but think about PLO where you fold KK from the SB, also this was a way above average skil level tbl, even MP1 was a winning player, he took a long time to call the flop raise, probably coz he was actually thinking he had back door eq at the very least and i'm holding the Kd and he thinks i have all the draws on the board, j9dd, kjdd, but i didn't

looking back i thnk maybe a ja, ott folds out his Q9 but i doubt it, pot is too big at that point, no FE imo

The effort you put into your trolls is at historic levels. At this point you are trolling yourself.

stop calling everyone a fish, it's mean, everyone sucks at poker, we are here trying to learn

now that you bumped the thread

you can run these equities using average value of the hands rather than brute force and the numbers pop up naturally

the average value of UTG2 is 56s, average value of MP1 QTs, average value of BTN A3o, average value of UTG JJ

thats how i got these equities for anyone interested

Hopefully a mod will be along to ban you soon.

i am not even asking you to be banned, i'm asking you to not post here if you don't have a contribution to the strategy and have your posts in here not about strat deleted. why would i care if you were banned