5-5 NL. Villain 1 sitting on about $900, Villain 2 about 1,300 and I have $1,000 (almost exact). Game is splashy pre-flop but much tighter post flop. Both villains are late 30's, both seem kinda "meh", with villain 2 wearing sunglasses and acting like a douchy 20-year old.

Villain 1 raises UTG to $25, 1 caller, folds to button (Villain 2) who raises to $60. I'm in the SB with AK. I re-raise to $140.

UTG calls, Villain 2 thinks for a while and then calls as well. (pot: $430)

Flop AJJ

I have a hard time seeing a J in either one of the holdings so I'm hoping to get some value from with AQ or a non-believing QQ. I lead out for $180.
Both players call.

Turn: A (weeeee! Pot: $970). At this point since I had two callers on the flop I'm assuming someone just took a bad beat and I'm probably splitting the pot.

I check, and it's checked around.
River: 8

I lead out for $300. (too small I think, but really I'm hoping someone with a J calls, because I doubt I'm getting much value from anything else)
Villain 1 shoves for about $600 total. Here's where things get crazy. Villain 2 ALSO shoves for $900 total (but effectively about $400 more to me).

Against one player how is this even a question, but BOTH of these players can't have Aces full because I have an A. I said earlier I didn't think either were great players but I just cannot see having a J doing this.

While I'm looking at the board and the players bewildered Villain 2 says
"Look, the pot is so huge and you're still taking your time when it's not much more to you, I'm going to call time soon". This was after maybe 30 seconds, MAX.

Thoughts? Is it reasonable to put Villain 2 on JJ here? And what percentage of the time am I splitting this pot vs losing? I don't think I'm ever winning the full pot outright here.

gross. they obv are never bluffing, and, as you said, both cant have an A. hard to figuere someone is stupid enough to play Js full like this...
you have to pay 400 to get 1500 since you´re never scooping, and i´d think that this is JJ almost all the time, way more often than 75%...
i dont know if i could bring it to myself in game, but seems like a sad, but pretty clear fold.

Double check your hand IMO

Not folding

That is some ugly river action. There are villains tight enough that I fold to the double shove. Against two random villains that I didn't have a good read on, I make a crying call. Your checking turn under repped your hand a bit and I see villains spazz out with under boats in these situations every so often. I agree your chopping at best, but even then your looking at $400 to win $1250.

V2's speech is obviously trying to apply some pressure. Without some history it is impossible to read, it could mean he is trying to get you to call or he is trying to get you to fold.

To be honest, I will never fold this hand. Ever.
V2 could also be just trying to blow you off the chop that he figures he has going with you. If he's savy.
I don't see how we can lay this down.

those who said calling, please range V1 and V2

They can't both have this range, (since they can't both have an ace) but I think it has to look something like this

AK, 99+, random bluff, J10 QJ
The thing is, Villain 1 might think that his KK is good here.
You 4! pre, so that puts you more on JJ+ (likely QQ given the flop, and his hand if he does hold KK), and you bet smallish on the flop. Again, might be scared underpair to the Ace.
You checked the turn, (likely checking with your whole range here I would assume) then you bet small on the river. This line seems pretty consistent with QQ/KK.
If that's the case, he could be trying to bully you out of the pot. He could also just be trying to rep the Ace that he never had the whole time.
Then V2 comes in and spoils the party by saying, hey look guys, I've really got an Ace, give me all your money. (Or he might think his J is good here with the same logic that you're both repping QQ/KK.)
I would not be surprised to see one of them show up with an Ace, and the other muck. Or maybe I just play in stupid 2/5 and 1/2 games. *shrug*

Call. Much rather take a chance that someone made a mistake and over repped a J or KK/QQ on river than they did flop a 4 of a kind...

Players make mistakes at these levels. I can easily see Villain 1 overplaying a hand like KJ/QJ suited and or KK/QQ. You said the pot was splashy preflop, Villain 1 probably thought he had good odds to call preflop and had a read/angle that villain 2 was not 5 betting you preflop.

More often than not players will not show up with 4 of a kind, despite the betting patterns.

What happened?

Call the floor, there has to be five Aces in the deck...

Even with a chop, folding here getting almost 4:1 is just so gross....I think this is probably a fold but at the table? I don't think I'm good enough to lay this down.

FWIW, I've been in two spots like this (Aces full facing a raise-arrin on the river). Both times villain had quads. FWIW.

UTG's range is [AT+, QQ, JJ, KJs, QJs, JTs]

Button's range is [AX, JJ]
Board: Ad Jh Js As
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.683% 05.44% 42.24% 1619 12560.00 { AcKs }
Hand 1: 06.921% 06.92% 00.00% 2058 0.00 { QQ-JJ, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, ATo+ }
Hand 2: 45.396% 03.16% 42.24% 939 12560.00 { JJ, A2s+, A2o+ }

The key here is that V1's range is relatively wide since your $300 river bet is so small.

Not folding.

I can't believe this took 30 seconds. You have have the second nuts. The likelihood is that someone is overplaying the under full much more than someone has quads.

Or maybe the deck is flawed and its a three way chop.

I don't think there's any way that one of them doesn't show up with JJ here. Puke fold.

yeah, i find it surprising that so many posters think that Js full or even KK/QQ is such a high possibility here. JJ is way more likely given action imo.
way more likely...
why would they c/behind the turn when they were willing to get stacks in anyway?
a check behind with Js full makes sense, controlling the pot and maybe make a crying call on the river. a check behind with top full or quads makes sense to trap.

but a c/behind with Js full, KK or QQ to raise the river makes absolutely no sense, and i cant see villains playing this way unless they are total donks. and it doesnt look like it given descriptions.

i think most posters here use pokerstove in a wrong way. we cant expect all QJ, KJ, KK, QQ to be in their range by the river action. these hands are in villains range, true, but not when they shove and overshove the river.

This is definitely villain dependent. Hard to tell with your only description is that they are both "kinda meh". If both villains are competent and smart enough to realize they cant raise with jacks full or eights full then I may be able to get away from it.

However, we have all seen a lot of dumb plays from people and often wonder what possible logic people put behind their moves. That being said with the odds given and being readless I am still going to call. It's pretty much a question of how often they could be that dumb, and you should have a decent idea of how much poker knowledge they have after playing with them for a while.

It might be a leak but I'm just not folding this. Not when I routinely see villains spazz out for 200+ BB's as often as I do.

Only the Button "has to have it", yet I still think his range is wider then just JJ. UTG definitely does not "have to" have JJ only.

If you give both UTG and Button a range that is not only JJ, then you have to call.

I'd be more interested in some description as to how either UTG or Button can only have JJ.

i give both UTG and Button a range that is not only JJ- but both of them Ax or JJ. less just wouldnt raise this river as played; not only as played, but it also takes really bad players to raise this board with less or a bluff; and it´s close to zero chance someone is bluffing imo.

if we add that the times someone really spazzes out, we only get half the pot and never scoop, i still think it´s a fold. dunno about other games, but i dont see people spazz out THIS WAY. need to have a solid read on that.

do you atleast agree that it is more likely to run into quads than someone spazzing out? if that is the case, it is a maths problem on how often these villains would go crazy.

My biggest concern here is that if someone has the lessor full-house (the J) why pick the river to spazz out? The flop is a good opportunity to raise, and then when it's checked to you on the turn you're only checking because you think you might be beat.

I'm sure we'd all agree if we're button we're shoving the river here only with an A or JJ. So if we can reason that UTG has an A then Button has to have JJ.

And that's my biggest dilemma here - what's he calling my four bet pre-flop? AQsuited maybe? AK same as me?

For what it's worth, I read the button's threat to call time as him being very strong (but we already know that) - considering I always move pretty quick and NO ONE has called time or threatened to call time on anyone in the 2hrs I've been playing this actually set off some alarms.

I'm going to post the results because I don't feel there's too much analysis left in the hand.

I spent another 20 seconds or so making my face do all sorts of weird movements before I folded.

UTG - QQ (wtf?)
Button - JJ (phew)

Looking back I think UTG's river shove was simply a bluff once he realized he couldn't win the hand - he must've figured me for KK and the button for a J - still a terrible play on his part but me giving him more credit than he deserved was the only thing that saved me, since I'm never folding to button's shove if UTG folds.

But if I had correctly put UTG on a wider range of hands and added a bit of a fishy factor then I think calling is correct here and I just got lucky.

omg you butchered this hand so badly on every street, learn to bet size and you won't be in this spot

I'm not sure if quads is more likely then spazz, but I understand what you are saying. Let me work through this...

There are two ideas here that are essentially saying the same thing:
1 -- "and it´s close to zero chance someone is bluffing"
2 -- "it is more likely to run into quads than someone spazzing out"

Since if 1 is true then 2 is a result of 1.

Both cannot have JJ and both cannot have Ax. The possible outcomes here for [HERO, UTG and BUTTON] (I don't mean this completely rigorously):
[AK, Ax, JJ]
[AK, JJ, Ax]
[AK, ??, [Ax,JJ]]
[AK, [AK,JJ], ??] I assume this is not possible given Button shove
[AK, ??, ??] I assume this is not possible given Button shove

Both UTG and Button both cannot have JJ or Ax, but either could have either.

Is there some way to apply or asses the possibility of having Ax to the inclusion of other hands? I.e. if UTG can have Ax on the flop, can he also have KJ? I think UTG could have Jx, definitely.

I think the only way to fold here is to decide that the Button has only JJ in his range. I believe this because I believe UTG will shove over Hero's river bet with a wider range then just [JJ, Ax].

So to answer you question, I believe it is more likely that UTG has spazzed out, then it is that BUTTON has JJ.

But I can see that since we believe that the Button's range is [JJ, Ax], if we believe that UTG has not spazzed out, then we have to fold. If we have a read on UTG that he would not spazz out here, then we have to fold.

Would love to hear your advice on betting for this hand.

Please?

lol wow, sickest spot ever

I think you're underestimating your odds on the river call. Do you realize you only need to come up with about 4 combos of non jj to call? There's 6 ak combos an while they shouldn't play that way, they COULD. Same for Aq and Jx.

Can't fold the river, should have folded preflop though, especially this deep.