I recently saw a video of a pro folding KQ from the small blind when faced with a raise + calls. I was shocked. But now I am wondering if this is a standard decision?

I encountered such a choice last night. I chose not to fold.

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Reads:
BB recently got knocked out of a tournament and just sat down.
MP raises preflop often, but he usually doesn't continuation bluff against multiple opponents.
BUT is LP and often calls raises from position. He rarely initiates a bet.

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$1-$2 No Limit Cash Game

MP raises to $12, BUT calls,
Hero SB has KQ and calls,
BB calls.
4 Players
Pot = $48

Flop: Q98
Hero bets $30, BB calls, MP calls, OTB folds
3 Players
Pot = $138

Turn: 4
Hero bets $75
BB raises all-in for $190, MP folds, Hero folds.

This hand feels very wrong to me.
I think all four of my actions may have been incorrect.

Please advise.

--CM

What range of hands do you expect to call your bet when you lead out on the flop?
What about when you lead the turn?

If def check one steet. Maybe 2.

Pre's fine. I do all 3 options w/ KQo in SB. It all depends on who's raising pre, our stack depths, and my image.

I actually prefer checking this flop to the pf raiser. For 1, it's a pretty wet board, so I'm not expecting many folds, and two, AQ is out there. Donk bets from the field are usually TP-ish type hands anyways. I usually donk when I can beat TP.

I'd def check turn after leading flop... mostly for pot control.

As played, it's pretty meh. I'd probably call getting those odds. We could trip up, or make a higher 2p. Also, if V is tilting from busting the tourney, there's some QT/QJ combos we're ahead of.

Yeah all 3 options are fine. Against tighter opponents we can just fold. It's definitely something you do not want any of your villains knowing though (that you're folding KQ).

I don't like leading st all. I would only lead hands that are much stronger or some strong draws which I don't really see here... KQ is a super weird hand to lead here.

As played..... prob fold? I'm guessing we lead our sets (we have 88/99). If we call Q9s and 98s I guess we have those. Leading put us in a weird spot.

Fold pre.

KQo and AJo are the two most overrated hands in poker. I fold KQ plenty from the blinds to a raise, mostly call if ive got a skill advantage and no one else has called. Donking is mostly bad, and it shows why here.

id probably c/c down i guess. meh. as played obvious fold.

When in doubt pf, I go to the 4 basics of poker: Hand Strength, Initiative, Position and Skill. To have the hand strength advantage, he would have to be raising pf about 30% of the time when he has the opportunity to open. That's pretty high for a 1/2 player. If that's the case, then you win the hand strength battle.

You gave up initiative and don't have position. We don't know about how he or you play, so there is no way to tell if you have a skill advantage. When you have two definite disadvantages and no clear advantage, it is best to fold. TBH, if he was raising over 30% of his range, you should be 3 betting him relentlessly. This would have been a good hand to do so.

3! pre or fold.

If MP has been active and raising with a wide range, then I would 3! to $45.

How are you figuring 30%? KQo is easily a top 10% hand, right? So I'd be thinking I have a hand strength advantage against a 20% opening range. From purely an equity standpoint, I see KQo take a slight lead against a 24% pf range.

However, more importantly, most times a K or Q flops, we'll have the best hand - and this comprises a ton of dry flops where people tend to auto-cbet, or bet if checked to. Plus we have a great draw on TJx boards, lots of two over plus gutshot boards we can usually profitably continue on, etc. KQ is usually a pretty easy hand to play. Yeah occasionally we get out kicked by AK or AQ... But in general, this is too strong to fold in this spot IMO, unless you're an absolute beginner and you're just playing super tight to try to avoid any tricky spots. (The tricky spots still come though).

Factoring in rake and being OOP in general I want more than 50 percent equity if in going to be flat calling unless I have a big skill edge or it's a hand that's really easy to play OOP like a small pair.

For whatever it's worth Janda has KQo as a fold sb vs the LJ and that's not factoring in that we are against a 6x open. Not that recommended hand charts are the gospel but I don't think folding KQo is crazy or that it's always profitable to call depending on the villain.

fold KQoff all day, 3bet KQs all day

I suggest thinking more about winning money than winning pots. If you have TP and are good, you're not likely to make much money. You'll collect maybe 1 bet. If you have TP and aren't good, you're going to lose a lot of money. You going to fold on the flop after getting raised or x/f on the turn?

Default with TPGK from SB after calling pfr... probably x/c flop and turn, x/f 3rd barrel otr with one pair unimproved. Lead a street if previous checks through... Obviously a lot more to consider here (board run out, bet sizes, ranges)... People don't have our top pair 2nd kicker outkicked with AK or AQ all that often - it's a bit of a cooler when it happens.

I agree about winning money. KQ is a good starting hand to make the best hand postflop and win money.

what was the read on the original raiser in the video? If he's a tight player opening early, it's fine to fold. In your hand it's a good squeeze opportunity since he's raising a lot of hands.

I would do the opposite. I think you have it backwards. I would 3bet KQ much much more often than KQs, which plays multi way. I would still 3bet both of them but folding KQ more and calling with KQs if I can't 3bet.

Pre Flop: I think KQ Off is a fold or 3 bet from the small blind, it doesn't play well multiways, especially from out of position.

These are great hands to mix up your 3 bet range with: especially when out of position, the small blind is one of the better spots to 3 bet in.

May I see this Janda Hand Chart that you are referring to?

--cm

One of many such charts in Applications of No Limit Hold Em. I can't find it online.

And I'm folding KQo in the SB all day. Sole exception...LAG raises from CO or BTN I may 3 bet him.

Discussion of equity preflop has very limited value. T9s is a much better hand to play in this spot despite having much lower all-in equity. If we're not getting all-in or close to it pre, what matters is our ability to extract money post-flop.

V is not likely to auto-cbet into multiple people (see reads).

Two-thirds of the time, we're going to pretty much whiff: no OESD, no GSSD + overs, no top pair.

Playing TP2K OOP against three opponents, one of whom raised preflop is a marginal situation. It's easy to win small pots and lose big ones. Occasionally, we'll either dominate V or he'll dominate us. For a variety of reasons, the amount we lose when we're dominated will be bigger than the amount we win when we dominate (see below)

When we do flop a draw, our position will make it hard to extract. Our position, number of opponents, and population tendencies will make it hard to successfully bluff.

With SPR in the 5 to 7+ range, we're going to face commitment decisions early in the hand, when we're really not going to have good info about other V's.

So, about a third of the time we'll find ourselves in a marginal situation with TP or a draw facing three opponents OOP with medium SPR.

The rest of the time, we just fold and lose our $11.

I think calling here is bad. I think a 3b is questionable, but better than calling. I think folding is the best line of play.


The domination game:
On a K-high flop, we're dominated by AA, KK, and AK (15 combos). We dominate something like KJ and KT (16 combos), if he'll raise all of those.

When we're dominated, V is likely to correctly believe he's best. When we dominate, we're not going to be quite so sure. So he can generally make more and larger bets with confidence. We're going to have to be more careful.

When we're dominated, we have a better second-best hand than V will when he's dominated. We're more willing to put money in the pot with TP2K than he will be with TP3K or TP4K.

We're OOP. On every street, he'll have a little bit more information than we do. He'll be more able to get to a cheaper showdown with TP4K while driving harder with an TPTK (or better).

Sometimes when we dominate V, we'll lose to one of the other two players, reducing the domination's value. (That's also true for V, of course, but it doesn't help us when some of his EV goes to another player.)

Reads are that MP raises "often" - when somebody sticks out as opening a lot, we're going to dominate them fairly often with KQ, and shouldn't be surprised if we see QTo, maybe Q9o, Q8s, K7s, etc. But even if they aren't that wide, there are two other players who likely are. This is live poker. Buttons and BBs *will* show up with hands like K5o, and they won't fold top pair. I've played poker at many different stakes at many different casinos, and the story has been universally true - people call with bad hands preflop, much worse than KQo, and they don't fold top pair... The only way I'm folding this is that if hero's read is that we're at a table where people are particularly tight preflop. But op already indicated that both MP and BTN are not tight.

Part of my frustration with these threads is that while it may be theoretically correct to fold KQo and AJo in spots like this at a full ring game (hard to say that it is), the correctness is based on the proposition that other players are playing a theoretically correct game. They are not. This is why it's so possible to win 10BBs or more per hour while playing much more slowly than online poker.

If you are a beginner, and just want to get your feet wet while trying not to lose a ton of money, then fine, fold these hands.

But if you are a decent player, (1) you are not doing yourself any favors by folding a profitable hand. (2) your nittyness hurts your EV in other hands - players do notice when somebody folds every hand for multiple orbits, and they won't call as many of your bets. (3) your nittyness is blocking you from becoming a better player as you aren't getting into the difficult spots that will help you advance. (4) your nittyness is hurting the game, and will ultimately cause other players to play more tightly. The last point is why I have such an issue with this advice.