Blinds: $2/$4

UTG+1 ($300): Tight and passive player. Play straightforwardly. Bet or raise when hit, check or fold when miss. Pretty weak and easy to play against.
Hijack (Hero; $440): I have been playing pretty tight and players at the table respect my bets & raises.
CO ($650): A little loose. Likes to see a flop.

Pre-flop:

UTG+1 opens to $20. Fold to me in Hijack position with KJ. I call. CO calls. Button, SB & BB fold.

Thought process:
I don't think my hand (KJo) is ahead of UTG+1's range as he is a pretty tight player. Plus, KJo is a hand which has high reverse implied odds if played poorly. The reasons I call were because I have position and I plan to take down the pot if UTG+1 show weakness after flop.

CO: Considering how he has been playing (open-raising hand like 86s in middle position). I think he calls with a wide range of hands here so my hand should be ahead of his range.

Flop:

6A2

Pre-flop raiser checks. I bet $35 into a $66 pot trying to represent an Ace. CO calls. UTG+1 folds.

Thought process:
CO could have an Ace with a medium kicker, flush draw or any small pairs. Sets not very likely but not impossible.

Turn:
4

Now I have the nut flush draw plus some K & J outs if CO had a smaller pair. I bet $70 into a $136 pot. Co calls.

Thought process:
I have nine live outs. If CO had an Ace, I may get him to fold his Ace with a weak kicker or any pairs between 7s-10s/Qs. Can catch a river to beat a made flush/sets.

How was my bet on the turn?

River:
6
This is where I was not sure of what to do. Pot: $$276.

Should I fire a third barrel here???


I am a newbie so I am open to any criticism or feedback in regards to my play and thought processes.

Fold pre. I get your reasoning, but in general I'm avoiding raised hands against a tight player who has aggressive capabilities if he hits. Not saying your strategy was bad, as it can be employed, but the general should be to avoid this type of player when he shows strength.

Definitely checking flop with loose player described behind.

Also checking turn, still
Not trying to play OPP for a big pot with a draw to a 4-card board flush and only one card to come.

River: as played, I'm waving the white flag here. A bluff doesn't make much sense, I guess you'd be representing a couple sets maybe, but would ultimately seem like your thought process in bluffing would be to simply muscle out the loose V.

Ultimately, these are the kind of tricky spots that can be avoided by playing tighter pre and on the flip.

This is gruesome. You played every street badly IMO and I believe you know it. I think you know you're lying to yourself, and if you're lying to yourself about your play - you'll have a much harder time improving. If not, we all started somewhere and this is a great place to learn.

Preflop is a 100% fold against described UTG player. Once you call you run yourself smack into a terrible situation. CO seems like a station, he's coming along with any piece of it.

Betting such a dry flop into two players is okay, but you have to shutdown now that CO called and you'd have to bet more in the first place anyway. And I mean SHUTDOWN. You don't put another dollar in unless you hit running clubs. I wouldn't bet this at all though, CO is a total drooler.

OTT you're just owning yourself now. I almost can't bear to read it.

OTR why would you think about firing again?! He obviously has a hand OTF, you think the board pairing misses his hand? He's probably got quads by now.

Also if you want advice on your thought process the best thing to do is to look at your actions and your thought process:

Pre: I don't think my hand (KJo) is ahead of UTG+1's range as he is a pretty tight player. Then why are you calling?

The reasons I call were because I have position and I plan to take down the pot if UTG+1 show weakness after flop. No, you only have position on him..there's still other players to act. And, just because he shows weakness doesn't mean he won't be ahead you, also doesn't mean he won't call.

Flop: CO could have an Ace with a medium kicker, flush draw or any small pairs. Sets not very likely but not impossible. So basically has you dominated. Why are you betting 1/2 pot into someone who has you dominated? Is he folding a set here? No. 2 pair? No. A weak ace? Maaaybe but it's still 50/50ish against most 1/2 players.

Turn: I have nine live outs. If CO had an Ace, I may get him to fold his Ace with a weak kicker or any pairs between 7s-10s/Qs. Can catch a river to beat a made flush/sets. You don't have 9 outs if he has a made flush. You have 7. That's 16%, worse than 4:1 against. So what do you do? You make it 70 into a pot of 136...meaning you need to win 25.36% to break even... so you bet more than you can afford to lose essentially. He never has "weak pairs between 7s-Ts/Qs" (not sure why JJ isn't in there?) in this spot.

A passive EP PFR is usually pretty tight. A pre-flop float isn't that good against a strong range. Also, your hand really sucks for this play as it's very unlikely to flop hands which will have good equity when called on the flop. Finally, your position isn't optimal and you really want absolute position when making this type of play.

Pre is an easy and standard fold. If the opener's range were wider, you had a better hand and your position were better it could be a good call, but not here.

I disagree with the other two posters and would also bet the flop. It sucks that CO called pre (this is why we want better position), but he usually either missed or didn't flop strong, and UTG+1 doesn't have an ace, and there are a lot of good barrel cards against CO. I think you need to bet a little bit more though to be credible, unless your sizing really doesn't matter and CO's continuing range is the same for a $35 bet vs. a $50 bet.

I also disagree with Stupidbanana about the turn. This is a good barrel card as it hits our range and improves our hand, and CO has a lot of weak 1-pair hands that will have a really tough time calling. A bluff should be easily profitable here unless he's a total station. A Q or T could also be a good barrel. I would probably x/f a K or J turn and go for value on the river if it checks through and the river bricks.

Just x/f the river. I don't expect a bluff to get through much when the turn bet gets called.

Hi Darnoiah,

Thanks for your opinion. My biggest error with this hand is calling 5BBs pre-flop against said villain. In addition, I also failed to realize that there were players yet to act behind me where they will have position on me after the flop. Notes taken. Cheers.

Not saying you are wrong. But may I ask why you think I should check on the flop? I have been playing pretty tight at the table and I think it was OK for me to rep an Ace on the flop. I may be wrong but I think Ax hand is within my range.

On the turn, bad spot to semi-bluff?

In game, I did shutdown on the river. Villain bets $30, I made a crying call with K high. He shows pocket sevens.

To conclude, should have folded pre.


Thanks.

Just wanted some feedback. No need to be nasty. F*** YOU!

I get it. FOLD PRE.

Thanks for your opinion.

What is wrong with semi-bluffing here? If you can't bear to read it, DONT!

Quads??? You got to be joking. What makes you think that?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to express your opinions.

I agree.

Thanks genius. I checked river, he bet $30, I call. He shows 77.

Thanks browni3141. I realize my mistake. =(



That is exactly what I thought on the flop and turn.

I surrendered on the river. Villain bet $30 and I made a crying call with K high. He shows 77. I did sense weakness when he made such a small bet. I thought about shoving on the river after his small bet but didn't pull the trigger.

Thanks so much for your comments. After reading StupidBanana's replies, I felt ****. However, I did learn a few things from this hand so thank you all.

I'm not sorry if it was offensive, you seriously need to look at your game; the sentence quoted above is the quintessence of how poor your play was in this hand. Think of it as tough love, the title of the post is "How was my play?" - the answer? Absolutely abhorrent on every street.

There was nothing in the OP to suggest villain was a calling station, unless I misread it.

@DonnieYee

“Until you're ready to look foolish, you'll never have the possibility of being great. - Cher

@Stupidbanana

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” - Harlan Ellison

“We kill all the caterpillars, then complain there are no butterflies.”
― John Marsden, The Dead of Night

In other words - "The cost of rippin' apart a 2+2 newbie & scolding him like a 2nd class citizen, accomplishes nothing - other than chasing them off the site." - Zuneit

@DonnieYee

I know at least 8 poker players [decent winning poker players] who will not even step foot inside a 2+2 forum with the intention of making a post. Why? Because of the type of response you got from Stupidbana. I hope Stupidbanana's repugnant responses [that almost doubled my blood pressure] doesn't make you the 9th!

Welcome to the forum! Well.......I know it doesn't feel that way - not now anyways.

^^^ Hey, people were hard on me when I got here. I got trolled, ridiculed, I absolutely hated it. And guess what? It made me a better poker player. Plain and simple. I want Donnie to succeed just as much as anyone else but in my opinion (as a teacher in my professional life nonetheless) sometimes the best way forward is through a brute force 'tough love' approach. This guy is absolutely wasting his money playing live if he plays like this. I played like this too when I started - for years on and off and then I found this website. So Donnie, if you read this.. I'm not sorry, get the **** over your hurt feelings, and improve your game.

I think this is an okay bluff to run. calling w/ KJ is fine live as long as you know its not likely to be 3bet. Make sure you stick with your plan on the flop though. I like betting bigger on the turn, we have huge amount of added equity as well as fold equity here. I think you can fire one last barrel on the river and rep AT or something going for thin value against CO's wide range.

As a pure default though, I don't like to run too many multiway bluffs playing LLSNL, unless i really have the confidence itll get through, or im pretty certain V is super super weak. its simply because theres just so many fish/stations that will call you down light, no matter how strong you are.

Also, welcome to 2p2, as you can see, you might find a nit or two floating around these forums. If youre starting out, its a pretty valid and decently profitable strategy. But dont let that stop you from exploiting good spots and playing balanced poker.

Everyone is different and everyone learns different but I completely agree with you. Comments like yours are the way I improve. In the beginning I would know in the back of my mind that parts of my game were in need of help but I would also naturally try to justify things to myself to feel better about them. And for me to have reality hit me in the face hard enough to be ready to re-evaluate and start changing I need tough criticism. So I appreciate your comments and I read on here a lot. The way I see it is if you didn't actually care about helping you wouldn't be posting here so I see sincere motives behind tough criticism. And tough criticism is what I need.

Like if there is a hand I shouldn't be playing I will get more from a comment of "what the **** are you doing playing xx that is horrid (backed up with reasoning behind why it is such)" then I would from a comment such as "well I don't think you should be playing xx" soft criticism allows me to justify continuing to make the same mistakes

Again tho, just personally how I learn and not everyone is like me nor do I expect them to be

Donnie Yee, although he visited the forum today, has not made a post since he last posted in this thread.

Maybe StupidB had a father that beat him & played football for a coach that screamed a lot & could get over the verbal ignorance he received in this forum.

I'm sure there are many others that can't. I know there are.

Hopefully, the abuse DonnieYee received in this thread won't make him nothing but a reader of the forum.

Bet of $125 OTR would have taken it down, 98% guaranteed. If he doesn't give you an ace, he has to now give you a 6 when you bet big on the river.

Find the guts to fire that third barrel. It's one of the best feelings in poker when you take down a pot triple barreling with complete air.

This is a joke, right? How weak and sheltered do you have to be to get discouraged from words on your monitor by an anonymous person (who is trying help, no less)? Donnie wouldn't last two hours in an army boot camp, if posts ITT bothered him to the point of not returning.

Grow thicker skin imo. I don't particular like Stupidbanana's style, but I get it and it doesn't phase me.

+1
wtf, he wasn´t even that rude.

Not everyone is wired the same. My father was a hard ass & then I went into the military for 20 years. It was only the Air Force, so it wasn't the 'real military' but I still had to put up with a lotta' a-holes & b-shyt. So I can take it.

But look at StupidB's comments about the way he spoke to DonnieYee:

Based on that statement, it was obvious to me that he has been waiting for the opportunity to dish out some payback.

Do you honestly believe that everyone who visits this site is going to be receptive to his style??

I think you would have a much greater chance of gaining more members in the forum by being more politically correct. I understand that both Ed Miller & Greg Raymer got their start here. What if the next great, stops by, gets a tongue lashing & says "fruck this place."? Think of what we lose out on.

Why is StupidB's style [which is the style he hated being on the receiving end of] a better approach than the following:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...t-oop-1577696/

I've said it before: I know 4 successful players who would not entertain the idea of posting in this forum for this very reason. And it's not because they are pussified.

IMO, StupidB is a lot like one of those football players who treat their equipment handler like a step-child. And no.......I wasn't the H.S. football equipment handler. I played baseball.

Final Thought: I cannot recall a thread where there was a debate between veteran posters about how to play the hand on a given street, one saw it completely differently than the other & told him that his line of thinking was totally abhorrent.

You're right, we should be should be more "balanced in our ranges" of treating the newbs. It's possible, although highly improbable, that we would scare off the next great. If they're great, they'll have their moment anyway.

Hi ZuneIt,

That is one great quote!!! I won't get discouraged by the mistakes I made. I will learn from them and make sure they don't happen again. I really do appreciate any comments/replies anyone on the forum posted. I do believe they all had good intention. =)

I am fine. Everyone has their own way of expressing their opinions. I have moved on. Thanks again ZuneIt. I think it is great that 2+2 forum has people like you. Have a Merry Christmas!!!


I will definitely keep posting on the forum. I find most people on the forum really helpful and nice. In the short time since I have joined the forum, I have learned tonnes from here.

Merry Christmas to you too

Stop thinking in isolation you need a plan for everything. Also what are you even trying to accomplish in the hand?
You have to have reasons for everything and in this spot you have no good reasons/justifications for anything you've done, which makes your play spewy/bad.

Also you most def shouldn't be playing 2/4 or 2/5 (stick to 1/2), go to micro stakes on stars and play that for a bit and beat micros/(until you improve significantly) it will help your game.

@zuneit

Honestly you're reading way too much into it. The approach I took is a fantastic way for people to learn. Likening it to football or whatever was absurd. Yes I said I hated getting criticized but so does everyone to some extent, most usually people with a large ego (which I had). Poker is no place for ego, as Im sure you're aware. So in essence my approach isn't attacking Donnie. It's attacking his leaks, and it just so happens one of his MAJOR leaks is his ego. I wasn't profane, or vulgar, I was 100% honest. This dude is burning money playing hands like this. For gods sake the station had 77! and Donnie was 'ranging' him on that! He even tried to use it to insult me cause he doesn't understand how ridiculous it is to show up with 77s there!

In conclusion,

yes, I could say something like "Well gee whiz donnie, you're almost on target but golly I think that cbet was too small maybe perhapsish and excuse me if Im out of line (Im very sorry if I am, 1000 apologies) but playing KJo here seems kind of sort of maybe sort of loose perhaps? "

or I could get to the ****ing point like I did and Donnie can start printing money. You're welcome Donnie.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using 2+2 Forums

Fold pre

as played
flop: bet $45
turn: bet $110
river: Jam