(2/5nl live game is what I usually play) The "pot sweetener" thread got me thinking about the way I play SC (or maybe even non suited connectors) after a raise. I have been generally following the approach of trying to get in cheap, in position and end up folding to a raise.

So let's say I'm OTB, and there are 2-4 limpers and then I limp OTB w/ 78hh. But then BB raises to somewhere between 20-30. Is there a certain number of callers that would then make it correct for me to call the raise also? Does the size of the raise matter, since the ratio of what I have to call to what is in the pot basically stays the same based on how many people call?

For example, if there are 3 limpers, I call, the BB raises to 25. If 2 of the 3 limpers call the raise, should I call? Do I need 3 callers? If the raise is 15 or 40 does that change the number of callers I need?

I just play live, and don't have the computer programs to show me the equity. I'm just not sure how to look at this. As I said, I would usually fold, under the premise of trying to get in cheap, but a lot of people said they make pot sweetener raises, so is there any difference in making the raise yourself (ie a sweetener) or calling one by the BB?

I know that if I hit in a raised pot I will win more, but it also seems like I could be losing 25 at a shot all night when I miss, and that can add up pretty quickly. I'm really not sure now what is the best approach for these types of hands.

Thanks for the help.

The first couple things that jump out:

-Position, position, position. You selected the BTN for this scenario; you CAN l/c, or even l/raise at LLSNL...tho most here are probably going to tell you to call with absolute position and 3 in front here (*but see balancing your starting hands)
-Type of Villains: aggro versus passive (implied odds: will be easier to stick around with a good, but perhaps not monster, draw if your opponents are not relentless)
-How have you been playing your premium hands as a part of a balanced range of starting hands pre-flop ?

I suspect most of the seasoned LLSNL posters here are going to be pretty favorable to playing 9Tss 4-way with a call from the button in your example. This question is huge, and probably you could read Harrington Vols I and II just to scratch the surface on all the considerations for this one scenario and its relationship to everything else you are doing in each session--i.e., using position, cbetting, betsizing, balancing ranges, disguising hands played, how to play monsters and also play multi-way where most flops miss most hands.

With hands like SC's I'm more interested in implied odds than direct odds. Assuming he's full stacked at 500, I'd usually call this even if it's just heads up. The other limpers dead money sweetens the pot, and with one other caller I'd love to sneak in. I follow the general rule that if the initial raise is less than 5% of the raisers stack then you can call in position with SC's and small PP's. Greater than 10% never call. Between 5-10% use discretion. Basically be honest about your skill advantage against the other players. I'm more likely to call with PP's but less likely to call with SC's. In your example though assuming BB is full stacked at 500 I'm calling 100% of the time. If the raiser is short stacked but two of the full stacked whale limpers call, then I'll call too.

I faced a similar but different situation the other night. 1/2, two limpers and I limp in LP with T9s. BB raises to 15 and only has about 75ish left. Folds to me and I insta-fold.

Pretty good new question i would say.

And i can only shoot from the hip here saying that 100bb deep, having BB raise and 2 callers im loving this. One caller is not happy at all. 4 callers im getting a little worried about reverse odds. We have position though, so im still calling but being more cautious post.

Good question OP.

It depends on the players in your game. Are the other callers going to play fit/fold leaving you heads up with a drawing hand in a bloated pot? Will the raising villain pay you off more than their c-bet when you hit?

If villain will pay you off, two callers should be enough if my math is right, but i ran it kind of quick. but mid-low sc shouldn't be such a large part of your range that you find yourself in this situation often enough for it to make that big a dent.

2-3 for sure, the more the merrier for this hand.

but really Vils that called is much more important to me. If raiser is someone who over values his hands like cant fold TP then im more happy about calling.

i see poor players call all the time, and say 'pot odds',
just because there are 4 plyrs in the pot already.
aren't they thinking limit poker??
in NL, sometimes you want to avoid having pot odds in these situations.
we can dictate how big we want to make the pot later, and not have to worry what odds we are getting OTF, because we are playing NL.
I try to think of SPR ratios instead.
If i call w/ 78s because there are 4 players in the pot, but my SPR will be 6:1 when i do so, it's no good, regardless of how many fools are in the hand.
you have to pay attention to villians stack sizes as well.

when you flop a hand, a draw, you may have to commit if your SPR is too shallow. I think you want to avoid these spots before they crop up.

In my experience, what Ed Miller says about playing SCs is right on.
If you play them in a raised pot, do so as the aggressor, and give yourself a way to win the hand besides flopping huge, which almost never happens.

I've found that i have way overvalued these hands in the past, with the likely results, when played passively.

One big factor that I would consider is the preflop raiser.

Is he usually agro or passive?

Is he likely to have a big hand here or is he just raising because he likes to raise limpers?

Is this player bad enough that he will have trouble folding a strong hand?


The first thing I will say is that I am going to assume from the start that you have good position. If you have limped a small suited connector or baby pair, you should already be behind many limpers in the CO or button. Otherwise, you have much bigger problems. Assuming good position.....


We should be more inclined to call behind several other callers with speculative hands like 87hh or 44 when we have good implied odds and pot odds. In this spot, the factors we want are:

-player with a strong hand
-bad player who can't let go
-passive player (we draw cheaper then charge the max when we hit)
-lots of callers (pot odds)



We should be inclined to fold a speculative hand when the player raising does not necessarily have a strong hand but will play aggressively anyway until shown resistance and there are many callers.

In this spot, we still lose often since we have to have the best hand out of a large number of players, but we don't stack anyone when we flop big so we don't make our money back because we don't have implied odds.

This goes against many player's gut reactions "he doesn't have anything good so I can call with my bad hand."

Vs an aggro player with wide range, I would need isolation and position in order to continue with implied odds-type hands. We would also have to not be playing fit or fold in order to turn a profit.


In general, calling raises has a diminished value in live play since most preflop raises are extremely large and many fish buy in short.

I generally play 1/2 or 1/3 and this happens a lot. I don't tend to limp on the BTN or CO very much but will from mid/late pos. and usually the first thing I do is size the raisers bet. 1/2 usually is between $8-20 and 1/3 is $10-25ish. What do I know about the players opening range? After more players call, I'll add up the total pot, and if it is reasonable with the size of my stack, I'll call myself. Sometimes it's not so bad to pull a squeeze here if you have a read and the stack to pull it off. Obviously don't want to try it with too many players or if any of them are maniacs (or short stacked), but it can scoop you large pots uncontested.

Pot odds and implied odds are definitely worth paying attention to here, although you prob shouldn't be flatting a raise with hands outside the norm for your position. That is where donks get caught up. Calling raises with 94s because they "have the odds" or are "priced in". Make sure the hand makes sense with your chip stack, everyone elses stacks, position, and yours & their images. Easy game.