Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3!

02-05-2015 , 02:24 PM
Hero arrives at the casino and is immediately sat at a new $1/2 game & buys in for $200. For the first hour, I’m card dead. Literally, zero playable hands. Have not won a pot. Have only played 1 hand out of the blinds. Then, all of a sudden I go on a bit of a card rush. I pick up kings twice in two orbits and win small pots. Then, a tight UTG raiser makes it $6 to go, one caller and I 3! To $35 with AKdd. Opener thinks for a moment, then folds as does everybody else and I pick up the pot. The reason I bring this up is I have all of a sudden gone from what can only be perceived as the tightest player in the room to a certifiable maniac. I’m not sure if my villains pick up on this, but for a reasonably observant player, I’ve “switched modes”.

$200 effective, Villain is OTB & covers (he was the UTG opener I 3! With AK) covers. Villain nearly tripled through two mouth-breathers where he flopped middle set and his opponents hung themselves. Seems solid in that he's not totally clueless. Understands position, as he once raised a few limpers OTB to pick up dead money. Villain has got a wireless laptop (lol) at the table and is not totally engaged so hero is not sure how observant V is.

Hero picks up JJ UTG and raises to $8. Two callers in the field and Villain 3! OTB to $30. Hero?
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 02:49 PM
Villain could be squeezing and could be playing back at your rush of cards. However, you have JJ, he reraised rather then raised some limpers, your way out of position and his raise is enough to kill your implied odds. Without some history that says he can squeeze raised pots with bad hands, I'm letting this go.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 04:41 PM
Too much info about hero, not enough info about Vs to offer anything useful.

In a vacuum, I'm ok with calling to setmine. Primarily given our tight heater image.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 04:46 PM
Open bigger IMO especially with your image. Given info about not paying attention this is a fold.

Don't flat to set mine...this is really the wrong hand with the wrong stacks in the wrong spot to set mine
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
Don't flat to set mine...this is really the wrong hand with the wrong stacks in the wrong spot to set mine
We don't know Hero's stack, we recently 3b squeezed V with AKs, we have a tight image.

If we are a disciplined enough to fold our OP on a low board facing heat, I don't see why you say this is such a wrong place to setmine.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trucdouf
We don't know Hero's stack, we recently 3b squeezed V with AKs, we have a tight image.

If we are a disciplined enough to fold our OP on a low board facing heat, I don't see why you say this is such a wrong place to setmine.
$200 effective in OP
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 04:57 PM
I'd assume that hero being on a rush is irrelevant and that villain is most likely 3betting with the same range he would against an unknown.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 04:59 PM
Fold. Your sizing on the AK hand seems way too big.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
$200 effective in OP
Edit. And OP clearly states V covers.

My reading fail.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
Fold. Your sizing on the AK hand seems way too big.
What do you think is a more reasonable 3! amount in that spot with AK?
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
What do you think is a more reasonable 3! amount in that spot with AK?
25-28 is plenty...we don't want hands we dominate to fold.

ie ATs-AQ, KQs, KJ, etc.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
Then, a tight UTG raiser makes it $6 to go

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
Hero picks up JJ UTG and raises to $8
Are 3x-4x raises standard in your 1-2 game? If it's the standard raise, then I suppose open raising UTG to $8 is fine. In any 1-2 game I've played in, standard PF raise is never less than 10. If the game dynamics dictate it, then I see nothing wrong with a raise to 8, but if the standard raise is to 12-15 and you raise to 8, you may be inviting people to 3-bet a fairly wide range against your open.

As played, I lay down and wait for a different spot. Can never really tell if the folks with the iPads are paying attention or not.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by akjohn1
Are 3x-4x raises standard in your 1-2 game? If it's the standard raise, then I suppose open raising UTG to $8 is fine. In any 1-2 game I've played in, standard PF raise is never less than 10. If the game dynamics dictate it, then I see nothing wrong with a raise to 8, but if the standard raise is to 12-15 and you raise to 8, you may be inviting people to 3-bet a fairly wide range against your open.

As played, I lay down and wait for a different spot. Can never really tell if the folks with the iPads are paying attention or not.
Depends on the table, I go with what the dynamics are. At my casino, I've been at tables where $15 opens get called five ways. At this table, $8 opens were getting folded around.

FWIW it wasn't an iPad, it was A FREAKING 17 INCH LAPTOP!!!
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
25-28 is plenty...we don't want hands we dominate to fold.

ie ATs-AQ, KQs, KJ, etc.
Good point. This table was a bit nitty so I should have made the 3! smaller, I'm thinking $26 or something.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by akjohn1
Are 3x-4x raises standard in your 1-2 game? If it's the standard raise, then I suppose open raising UTG to $8 is fine. In any 1-2 game I've played in, standard PF raise is never less than 10. If the game dynamics dictate it, then I see nothing wrong with a raise to 8, but if the standard raise is to 12-15 and you raise to 8, you may be inviting people to 3-bet a fairly wide range against your open.
Eh, I've been in games where the the standard raise was 5-6 and players who had clearly been planning on limping end up folding when they realize there is a raise out there.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 06:17 PM
Hmm, think I may have just found a leak in my game. Gotta say I'm surprised how many people are just folding to the 3-bet here. I'd probably flat the 3-bet preflop. Afterwards, I'd probably call up to a 1/2 size bet on flop if we have an OP (no A, K, or Q on flop) and fold to a second barrel on the turn unimproved.

I guess it's better to wait for a better spot since his 3-bet range is prob AK and QQ+ (16 combos of AK and 18 combos of overpairs). Seems like an easy spot to be stealing on the button w a raise and several callers in front of him though.

How would you guys play this hand if he was a serial squeezer?
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 06:23 PM
math says you can't setmine. i'd probably play it though. call and call again on non A,K flop
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 06:25 PM
If he was a serial squeezer then his range would be much wider and this would be a call but not just for set-mining purposes. 4-betting would be pointless unless we thought he could get it in with a range that is worse than JJ.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 10:10 PM
I'd fold because of the sizing. Most of the time this is QQ+. AK and bluffs tend to squeeze larger because they don't want a call.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyurus
How would you guys play this hand if he was a serial squeezer?
Depends on what sort of range he has for squeezing and how he will play it post flop. If he will squeeze wide but not garbage and/or he won't lose a lot post flop then I would go ahead and 4 bet/fold and put the pressure back on him. 4 betting half of your stack and then folding seems absurd but this is always a hand that beats JJ unless villain is a maniac or there is history. If he will squeeze super wide and/or will lose money bluffing or betting worse top pair post flop then hero can flat call for value. This can create some tough reads post flop but avoids letting spewy villains trying to squeeze with garbage off the hook.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
Understands position, as he once raised a few limpers OTB to pick up dead money.
I should point out that unless he showed his hand, this is usually indistinguishable from him picking up a real hand OTB once. If he has only done it once, the longer you are at the table, the more he had a legitimate hand.

If we hate folding, we have a tendency to sometimes interpret past hands in a way that lets us think our opponent has a wide enough range to justify not folding.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-05-2015 , 11:26 PM
just folding without better reads he can be squeezing light
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-06-2015 , 12:17 PM
I did wind up folding, even though at the time it seemed gross. That shallow, set mining was out. 4-betting without having seen V 3-bet light seemed spewtastic. Jamming is ridiculous.

Of course the droolers in between called, I would have flopped top set and dragged a 400bb pot. Eh. Such is life.
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-06-2015 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
I did wind up folding, even though at the time it seemed gross. That shallow, set mining was out. 4-betting without having seen V 3-bet light seemed spewtastic. Jamming is ridiculous.

Of course the droolers in between called, I would have flopped top set and dragged a 400bb pot. Eh. Such is life.
OH well now that you tell us that you def should have called
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote
02-06-2015 , 01:39 PM
Jumping in here a little late (with results) but ...

I agree that this would be a marginal spot if HU, but with the other players behind you that opens up the door to a flat here IMO. Certainly possible that if you call then they dont. But you have been at the table long enough to sense what might happen here.

If you are on a rush, why is your stack still @ 200?

You are calling $22 into $57 with only $170 behind .. $22 x 8 is $176 so you are fringe. There are others that want to set mine with at least 12 or 15 to 1 to make up for the other variance factors, so for them this is an insta-fold. The biggest factor in set mining is 'are you going to get paid off' even if you call with the right odds. There are nits I fold pairs to just because they will lock it down OTT unless they are strong as well .. now both of you need to hit the Flop in order to justify the call PF which is hard to do.

But with potential additional dead money in there ($22-$44 more) this now becomes a 10-1 spot or above if (WHEN) you check through your set OTF. GL
Hero on a rush versus a solid V's 3! Quote

      
m