live 1/2 no reads on villain

Hero KK in BB (stack 450)

EP 10
Hero 30

flop A84r

Hero 35
EP call

Turn is a complete brick. It might of brought 2 to a flush.

Hero tanks, counts up a big stack, but then checks.
Villain snaps all in (150-200 approximately)
Hero Folds

Im 99% sure i got bluffed because an oversize bet polarizes his range into bluffs and nuts and that bet size screams that he doesnt want to get called.

What do you think?

Check the flop

I wouldn’t level yourself too much into thinking “well would be really do XYZ”. At 1/2 most of these guys aren’t thinking players and don’t have any logical reason for half the **** they do. Someone snap donk shoved 33 on a 883r board against me the other day...granted yea I think that line will be something like 55 or a bluff a lotof the time but people do stupid **** with value hands all the time.

You 3 bet this guy after he opened from early position, you cbet, and he is still shoving turn, I’m fine letting this go.

I’m usually checking flop in this spot. Since we did cbet, we are now overepped and really low in our range. How often do you see people bluff shove into someone who 3 bet on an A high board? For me it’s pretty rare.

x/c flop
ap snap fold

Ask yourself what you’re hoping to accomplish when you bet this flop.

I was hoping for a fold and was going to fold myself to any aggression on later streets

A couple hours later this guy told me he bluffed me out of a few hands so thats why im assuming this was one. I know bluffs dont happen much at 1/2. I left the table shortly after because this guy was putting a lot of people in difficult situations.

Like others have said - don't bet this flop. It allows villain to play perfectly against you with his entire range.

E.g. say villain flats your 3bet with QQ-77 AK AQ AJs-A7s and a few BWs/SC.

When you bet KK on the A84r flop what does V do?

Folds nearly all his QQ-99.

Calls all his AX

Calls or raises his 2-pair+

Floats, folds or bluff raises his draws (though he has almost no draws on this board other than gutshots with 76s/65s).

So he's folding most of the hands you're beating, calling or raising when he's ahead and he's sure of where he is with any draws (behind for now). That all happens purely automatically because of your flop bet.

What compounds the error of betting KK-99 on this board OOP is that villain necessarily has to have a large % of his range AX here which means you absolutely cannot barrel the turn. This means that villain can play the turn near perfectly too.

If V has called flop with his best pairs below KK he now knows you likely don't have an Ace or a draw (no draws on flop) so you must have KK-99 yourself. Depending on how likely he thinks you are to 3bet JJ-99 blinds-vs-UTG preflop V will know whether to bet small for value or turn his pairs below KK into a bluff. Concievably if he flatted KK to your 3bet he could value bet that every time you check this turn knowing he's ahead of your entire range.

So don't sweat the fact you might have got bluffed here - that's not the lesson. Lesson is to avoid playing narrow ranges face-up OOP Vs aggressive players.

What you need to do in this spot is make sure that your flop checking range contains some AX so you can call two streets after you check flop. Avoid betting your best KK-99 and make sure you have some bluffs in your flop betting range - if you have no draws or total junk to bluff flop with you should use your weakest pairs below top pair to bluff with, not your strongest pairs below top pair.

On the turn you need to check some of your AX so that you can continue after you X turn.

Precisely what a poker player would say if he'd failed to get value out if you in a couple of hands and wanted to increase his chances of getting called next time

The goal in poker is to win money, not hands. As stated above, you decided to bet to get weaker hands to fold and stronger hands to stay in. That's losing poker.

Have some checks in your range when you have TP on the flop to prevent getting bluffed.

Thanks for the well thought out response. This makes a lot of sense.

I am turning my Kings into a bluff, and trying to get a 1/2 V to fold TP.

Take my money

Mod edit: This is sarcasm. HP, please don't post sarcasm in LLSNL strat threads. As an entry level forum, some posters won't realize it's sarcasm, and for those who do it is borderline trolling.

This is not a great reason to bet. If you bet and they fold, then they have like 2 outs at most against your hand and are probably drawing dead.

Great post other than this point. 99/TT should be bets on this flop since opponent will fold KQ/KJ/QJ which actually have decent equity against your hand.

^ true. I did make this point in my wall of text but it got lost I guess and is maybe confusing given the way I talk about hero's whole KK-99 together in other places.

I'm working on thinking and writing with greater clarity - quite difficult for me if I'm honest. However it has been really helping me in-game. Under time pressure you can't afford to think through everything vaguely relevant to the situation, just got to identify and consider the most relevant points. That's where rules of thumb and experience come in handy and can make up for being a slow/muddled thinker

I like the post above about the hand analyse was a very insight post.
What I got your hand was the cbet just doesnt do anything.
Do you think he will fold his crappy ATo after calling your 3b? Most likely not.
I think that in these types of hand you have to mix in some check and some cbets
Are you always cbetting AK/AQ here?
As you had no reads on villian,I would be safe to assume he has none in you.
So as played at 1/2 a bet/call3b , check/call cbet line I would be near 100% he has a Ax here at a minimum. IF told ya other wise he is FOS.
Even after the hand just watch how he plays if he pulls some other crazy bluff then maybe but would have to see it before I believe it.

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three bet bigger. 45.

flop, check.

cutting out a large stack of chips and then checking is always a tell of weakness. Don't do this if your intent is to fold to a big bet

as played, fold.

yes, his shove looks bluffy, but what do you ever beat when he calls the flop? unless he was floating with 99 or something. but at 1/2 you will see players spaz out and shove that turn with AJ when they really have no idea with what they have other than they know that have top pair good kicker.

but for this player to specifically put you on a big pair pre and then plan to bluff you off of your hand if an A hits the flop is some FPS that rarely works out. maybe he bluffed you, but unless you have rock solid reads, you can't call against his perceived range.

Welcome to the forum, OP. Next time please don't give away results. It tends to bias advice.

I'm grunching here (that means responding without reading the other responses), so others have likely said most of this, but...

Your stack doesn't matter that much when you cover. Effective stacks are about $250, right?

How do you have no reads on V? This is live, you should at least have a hint based on appearance. Dress, demeanor, age, ethnicity, choice of drink, etc. all matter.

Did no one call before it got to you? Either way, bigger pre please. V should have a strong range to open in EP and you are OOP, so you want to juice it a bit more. I make it $40-45 if no callers, and another $10 for each caller.

Check flop. You are WA/WB and have no need to be building a pot. His open in EP and call a 3-bet range has a bunch of big aces, and the PPs will be afraid of the ace and are unlikely to bluff.

AP, snap fold turn. I know you think the bet is polarizing, but in LLSNL a big bet usually means a big hand.

Seems to me he was repping the Ace hoping to induce a fold.

And what sort of hands do you expect villain to fold to this bet?

Any hand that doesn't have an ace, maybe ace with a junk kicker. How else do you want him to play it? Check raise and blow up the pot when there's an overcard? Check fold?

C-bets are standard. He's out of position, take a stab and if he calls you slow down unless you know enough about this player to think otherwise. I play pocket aces the same way here so I'm not sure why people are surprised.

How about the one action you missed? Check/call.

Nobody is folding an Ace here. It's WA/WB and most of his range has 2-5 outs (or less).

And if he bets the turn when we check?

If I am going to be check calling I'd just as well prefer to take control of the hand on the flop with aggression. I'm one of those players who believes aggression is almost as important as position in Hold Em. In this case, especially because I am out of position and raised preflop, I C-bet as I want to show that I don't care about his position, I'm trying to build a pot for myself.

This belief allows me to build pots when I am ahead, get a few folds when I am behind, get free turn cards when I'm in position on the draw, potentially cause a fold when villain might have caught up.

For example, let's say the "brick" that hits the turn was a 7. Maybe villain had pocket 7's or 87 and now hit his gin card. Maybe a bet by me on the flop and he decides it's not worth it to peel a card as he's most likely behind and maybe even way behind if I had pocket aces or what have you.

If he calls my c-bet I slow down and take it from there. That's life when you get dealt Ace Magnets. It's just my nature to play poker this way as I've found myself putting myself in worse spots when I play passive so I prefer to have controlled aggression, depending on the player, my image with them and the hand texture.

Hey, there's absolute correct play in poker, but that's how I would personally play it. As I said, I play Aces the same way most of the time, just mixing up my play when I know there are players paying attention.

Yup. Everything that folds to the c-bet is stuff you're beating anyway. Why make it fold?

By that logic, if you might be beating him why not build a pot? Aggression serves multiple purposes, as I posted above.

If I am in position here and he checks, that's a green light for me to bet and to assume he doesn't have an ace. I could have 7-2 at this point and assume I can wrestle this hand away from him easily. Especially on a $1/2 table where it's far more straightforward for the most part, I just have to think another level ahead of my opponent.