raise preflop

not sure if i personally fold this flop to the bet, villian likely has Kx as opposed to a club draw. if you were confident in your abilities to bluff if villian checked clubs (and fire river) then i think the call is fine. would like this call more if villian had 300+

since he is betting pot pot, i think call is best? maybe he just bets 120 on the river and cant fold for 80 dollars more.

or, you can give the 'i want a free showdown speech' and minraise the turn. i kinda like that.

i think shoving the turn is the worst play

I must be missing something. V is giving you a chance to play 100% perfect. Shoving the turn will look exactly the same as shoving the river. You get to see if he hits his boat at zero risk. If he doesn't hit it you can shove and he's left with the same leveling decision only you've completely removed any variance. Call the turn and shove the river when he misses. Shoving turn is kind of dumb IMO. It's not like you're fading a ton of outs.

Spike, he is 100% not folding, and you may have to fade more "outs" than you realize. (Think about why he's showing)

Playing perfect is getting him all in on the turn with 4 outs when he is in a position that he cannot fold.

good math problem. Assume he folds all club,7,8 rivers and calls the rest. Making more by shoving now or then?

I actually have 2 people in my normal room that will tell you (imply = 'good hand') what they have in order to 'save' you money (and them avoid a suckout). Depending on my holdings I usually just say 'thats what I thought you had' and raise them.

In this case here I raise/shove since we force the V to put money in before any of the scare cards hit and we don't let him boat 'for free'.

Our room only allows 1 card to be shown ... if HU and one person is all-in already. Either/both players can show one card. So in this case the floor would be called 'automatically' by the dealer and the hand would be mucked. Most casinos would muck the hand immediately without the floor.

Odd spot, but I raise most every time .. even if Im behind. GL

There's a couple nice examples in here of misdirecting statements in here. The statements:

"Let's see if you brought your balls today, $80 on top." (implying that you are raising just to test the guy's courage and not because you're strong)

and

"Well I can still catch a club, I'm all in." (implying that you have a flush draw and not a strong hand)

These are nice examples of statements that actually indicate a strong hand and are tells in themselves. Players who use misdirecting statements like these want to imply there is another reason for the action they are taking. These are very obvious examples and you wouldn't hear them much above pretty low stakes.

If the opponent is bad enough making such statements won't matter. But there is little upside to making such statements if you're raising the turn, because even a pretty bad player could be alerted to your strength because of them. If you're going to raise the turn, you probably shouldn't say anything.

These are such nice examples of people coming up with conscious misdirection that I think I'm going to use them in the book I'm working on now that's on the subject of verbal tells.

Zach,

That's nice and all but the only reason I suggested that statement is because OP and the villain have a history. Without a history I'd never say that to an unknown.

Is this a serious question? That's what I was saying.

We win 92% of $195 when we shove the turn.

Looking at it another way, if he is sometimes calling turn, sometimes folding river, there is a b/e point somewhere.

But in the cleanest sense if he is never folding turn then for us to "wait" for safe rivers our outs (to avoid) need to be < 4. Which they are not.

The time to wait for a river would be if we held K9 ourselves. Bc then we could shove every single river and play perfectly.

I think I would prefer calling turn: If I understand this right, we have position... Flat turn to make it look like we are on a draw... We have two opportunities on the river to get the $$ in as opposed to shoving the turn... when draws brick he may do something stupid like bet or shove.... if not we can just shove any river ( less K&9).

I am certainly close to wanting to shove turn though, just hoping to let this guy level himself and keep everything in the moment (not let another card peel and let him think about the hand more)/ may fluster him or lead him to call bc he has outs even if hes not ahead.

Say something like "well I came here to gamble" and then stuff it in... Or announce to the dealer I'm arrrrr in and say ganbboooooool... Winner winner chicken dinner

Op
Whatever u do, don't do the speech

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Oh okay. As long as you have a reason then it's cool. I will agree that for some players it would probably have the desired effect, although it's hard to know what the effect will be.

Lol. Think we're being leveled now.

I appreciate this a lot, thank you. (I made the flush draw comment) I need to keep quiet when playing 1/2. I turned quads the other day and check raised 2 people. 1 person folded and I made a comment that I thought that it was just me and him and didn't know there was still another player in the hand. He folded and said it was because of the speech.

I need to keep my mouth shut and would be very interested in reading any material you produce on verbal tells

If I was forced to pick a tricky verbal action in this spot, I'd probably do something like this:

Think for a few seconds and then shove. When he doesn't call immediately, say something like, "I've got the straight. I'll even let you pick one of my cards if you want." He'll pick one of your cards and then there's a good chance he'll level himself into thinking you have a pocket pair of whichever card he turned over because, why would you tell him you have a a straight unless you wanted a fold?

I generally try not to speak when I'm all in. I just don't know what to say so I don't say anything.

In this particular case I shoved and he tanked. After two minutes he asked me if I would show of he folded.

I replied "Pot is to big I can't do that. " How do you guys feel about that?

I always say no

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Don't like it. Just don't say anything. People like calling, and he's tanking because he's thinking about folding. Don't let him try to find a reason to fold based on what you say.

Also, I don't like what you said because it's an example of the misdirection Zach cited ITT. You're saying you won't show a card because the "pot is too big" and misdirecting him from the likely real reason, which is that you have a very strong hand.

I doubt villain thinks about it on that level... but it should be very obvious to him that you are, in a way, lying - the fact the pot is so big is nearly irrelevant / pointless. And I think villain is more likely to fold if he senses you're trying to manipulate him in a way to get him off the scent, etc.

If you must speak and have a good sense of humor/good delivery, I'd say something non sequitor, absurdist and funny. That may make him more willing to pay you off/give you action because you seem likable. No one likes paying off *******s.

An example is something like "I'll be damned if I show you one card. I haven't even looked at them myself."

It's funny without giving away any information, and the non sequitor / absurdist part mitigates misdirection because he's in on the joke - you have obviously looked at your cards.

For the vast majority, better to stay quiet.

Check raise quads? I'd like to see that hand history as that was almost certainly a mistake as well.

I'm curious, OP, in all honesty: what do you think the chances are that you would have made this statement if you were actually bluffing? If you had been bluffing (obviously unlikely given this scenario but let's just say you were), what would have been your response? Think about it a little before answering.

As Willyoman pointed out, your response is another example of a subtle misdirection, and I think it's unlikely you would have said that if you were bluffing. Unless of course that is a standard response you've chosen to say in those situations.

It's my statement I make any time sometime asks if I respond at all. 50-60% of the time I just dont say anything.

I'd semi tank then shove the turn. Make it seem like you have a decision to make. As far as talking while ai, it depends on the specific history you have w/ this guy. most people fold if you tell them you will show. I almost always say I'll show if I'm bluffing and they ask, assuming their a random.

I think your response was pretty good, especially if this is your standard and he knows it.

Btw raise pre flop, your otb and you said your "loose," you'll never ever be able to credibly rep high card boards if you limp. As opposed to raising, getting 2 limp/callers and having them check fold to your cbet on a A K 4 board. (or better yet they call the flop and fold to your double barrel.)

dude cmon he's obv never folding... ship it in

and if he folds, do NOT show, and say you forgot what you had

on second thought, maybe just raise like you would normally lol


this is so weird lol, prolly shove here...his hand is so strong, if he showed ak instead i would make it 95

ok i just got out of the shower and was thinking about this hand the whole time, i change my answer....

i think we are more likely to stack him if we put him into a shove/fold spot instead of a call/fold spot for stacks,

so i would raise to 140 and I think that's clearly the best play, because if we shove and he folds that is a nightmareeeeeeee but this way makes it so much more likely for him to put it in, raise to 145 GG, I actually think shoving kind of sucks