n i know i brought up the chance of vil2 having a huge hand, which i think is very unlikely, buuuuuuuut if he did, then we could possibly land huge and stack off against him by flatting pre, rather than getting pushed our 3bet and never seeing a flop. not to mention gambly vil1 can come over the top w/ anything we have no idea

One very good element of our reads to consider here would be how V2 has been reacting to V1's aggression. Is this his first flat-call? Has he been 3-betting? When he flats V1, does he float and try to take pots on the turn? I know we don't have that info here, but it's good to discuss what we should be watching for at the tables.

"not to mention gambly vil1 can come over the top w/ anything we have no idea "

As discussed above, if he's 4betting AI with >= 14% of starting hands, we can profitably call with KJs. If he's not, but he's opening around 40%, then we only have to worry about this case less than 1/3 of the time anyway. If he's sometimes min4betting, then things get kind of interesting (but that's unlikely).

If we can't confidently assess whether Villain 1's shove is that wide or not, i agree that 3betting isn't advisable. I'm not sure how confidently we can take a flop OOP anyway, in that case, so folding preflop is fine.

Summary: The only way "gambly vil1 can come over the top w/ anything we have no idea " is an argument in favor of a flat call preflop is if we don't have a trustworthy preflop read on V1's 4-bets but do have a trustworthy read on his postflop play, and a trustworthy read that V2 is folding most of his range on the flop. That's not an implausible parlay, since preflop 4-bets are rare.

all great questions. i hope OP is reading all you're suggestions so that he can note these things in later games.

OP!!! say something!!!! you still there?

the fact that people are advocating a c/r on the flop proves that poker is still profitable

IMO lock thread and let people keep c/ring this flop

The fact that you would make this post proves that people are still incapable of actually read before post.

C/r to 200, fold if reshoved.
Any card other than A on turn, shove.

Nice bump.

Dgiharris came off like an idiot itt. C/r is horrendous. I recall him being an okay poster too when I used to post here a few years ago. But yeah... This is a textbook c/c, let villain keep bluffing.

LOL

Are you busto yet?

I certainly learned something here! So would you raise to like $250 to give V1 a price of 3:1 to call? That would target his gutters etc or maybe I’m mathing wrong and the raise needs to be more like $400 to give him bad odds

strong bump

I’m going to go back now and read the 400+ posts from 10+ years ago. Stand by for a thorough response.

I haven't read through this thread, but I saw your bump and I'm just letting you know that dgiharris was a terrible player so I'd look at his posts with extreme criticism before accepting them as fact. I noticed SABR posted ITT, and he is (and was) light years better at poker than dgi, so I'd pay more attention to his posts.

I went back and re-read my old posts expecting them to be terrible (I am light-years better than I was in 2012) but I found myself mostly nodding and saying "yeah this is pretty solid."

KJ just isn't strong enough here to raise into 2 players and expect to be good most of the time if they don't fold. Given how many bluffs I have here I wouldn't raise any worse than AJ here for value.

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