Reads - Fish is drunk playing a lot of hands. Raising a lot pre and firing C-bet almost every time. Only hand saw him show down was QQ on a 83J22 after b/b/b with potsizes each time. Otherwise he's just betting then folding to aggression or just limp/folding.

Effective stacks are 63bb(fish with $125).
UTG fish raises to $15 and gets 2 callers. Hero in BB with 97 and calls.
Flop is J93
Hero: Checks
Fish: bets $35(60)
Folds to Hero: calls thinking we can rep clubs(since he's shown he folds to aggression), improve to 2p or trips, pick up a heart draw, and we might even have best hand and he could shut down.
Turn is 2
Hero checks Fish checks - at this point what do we think fish is checking back with?
River is J
Hero checks
Fish shoves 75(130)
Hero ??

What is range do you assign him on each street? what is he repping here on the river? Finally What do you guys do in this spot?




*Disclaimer - Point of this post is to provoke discussion. Saying fold pre doesn't do that.*

Range is ATC. Pot is ~$190 and it's $75 to call, I think this is a pretty easy call.

TL;DR after 63 effective stacks and you call with 97 , I'm not sure who is the fish.

You're not very good at reading.

The reason people say fold pre, is a) you have 63bb effective stacks with a suited one gapper oop.

B) 97 plays horrible oop because 1)pairs are usually no good 2) we rarely flop big draws(flush/o.e.s.d)

Your just putting yourself in bad spots, then you make thread's saying don't say fold pre.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...m-shyt-457839/
You can't play post flop correctly until you play pre correctly.

preflop, I don't know how positionally aware you can expect a drunken 1/2 player to be, so his range might be as wide as the grand canyon

flop, his range is incredibly wide

hard to say what he could be checking back turn with since it's hard to put a drunken 1/2 fish on a thought or a hand, but you did watch him follow through strongly with an overpair to the board when flush and straight draws flopped, presumably to charge them. His range is again pretty wide, but he's probably not checking a strong jack, an overpair, or a set after you check. I put him on a showdown hand like a middling pair that's worse than ours, some nines better than ours, or a draw that's looking to get a free one, something like ace high clubs or a king high or queen high straight draw.

on the river he is repping 3 jacks or a full boat. He likely doesn't have a hand like aces, kings, or queens, as they'd likely bet the turn. A better nine is probably checking behind on the river. Of his value hands, trips with an alright kicker looks like the most likely possibility, as he might have checked turn fearing he was outkicked or beat by an overpair, but then as a drunken undisciplined 1/2 player decided he had to shove river when he hit another jack.

It's possible that he turned a draw or a small pair into a bluff on the end after you checked 3 successive streets to him, but I don't know if you know enough about this player to make the hero call on the end. You are getting an o.k. price, but jacks and nines, seven kicker is never good enough except to catch a bluff here.

but, yeah, I know it's been said, but this is just a terrible hand to play OOP shallow for a raise. You are setting fire to your money when you call with it. It's kind of a pretty looking hand until you realize that you

a: check/fold flop 90% of the time

b: take one stab and get called in 9 places and shut down on turn 3.3% of the time

c: flop a draw that you're not even sure is the best and put 1/2 your chips in and miss, and then don't have the option of blowing an opponent off the hand at the end because his range is ill defined and because "it's 1/2, why would I ever fold?" 3.3% of the time

or, d: or put yourself in a position where you're calling a loose player down light with second pair and have no idea where you're at 3.3% of the time

I don't even know if he calls enough with worse hands or flats with better hands to make a block bet profitable here OOP. He'll raise presumably with all his jacks and definitely with his fulls, but I wonder if a small token bet could get us to showdown with a hand like 77, or 88? He'd likely fold ace high or king high, raise some bluffs, boats, and trips obviously (might be more reluctant to bluff, though, as a raise for the rest in front of him would lay us a price that we virtually couldn't refuse).

fold pre

Is this a level?

Fold pre.

Nice disclaimer. How do people understand what the correct play is, and still make the wrong play? Boggles my mind.