solid read

You aren't advocating checking in the BB, are you? I understood you to be "spitballing" ITT, not necessarily advocating checking or raising 30x.

I think the way this hand can be played better by OP is to raise large enough to get HU. Being OOP, I would err on the side of too big rather than too small. Going too small gets us to this hand, going too big takes down the pot. If we are in position, going too small gets us to this spot with a multiway, except we would be in position. Being in position with AA multiway is ok with me.

The problem with this is that it is easier said than done. We have people arguing in this thread that the raise should be larger to like $20 versus $25 or whatever and this discussion is *laughable* at my typical table: there is 0% difference in how many ways we are going to go the flop regarding a $20 vs $25 raise at this table against these opponents with these stacks (right?). So finding a "reasonable" raise size to get this HU is going to be very difficult and quickly get you into lol sizing (which is why I actually suggested $60, even though I'm perfectly aware this will mostly just take down the limps).

The last table I was at, I saw a $25 raise in a 1/3 NL game go 5ways *until* the 6th guy (a clueless moran) closing the action limped/minraise to $55. It went 6ways to the flop for $55 each, creating a $330 pot with half the stacks being SPR ~1. I mean, *totally standard*.

Ggoodluckfindinga"reasonable"sweetspotattableslike thisG

But that's the thing: it isn't the worst case scenario, it's the scenario that is going to happen *100%* of the time. Seriously. A $25 raise here in this situation sees a 4+way pot every time (OP will tell me if I'm wrong on that). And if my options are (a) this result vs (b) a limped pot vs (c) a $60 raise getting action or taking down, I rank result (a) dead last.

Of course, there are times and situations where this preflop result isn't going to be expected, and so we try for a better result (say raised HU) and it unexpectedly doesn't work out, and so we deal with it then (but overall it will be fine as the expected result we achieve the vast majority of other times will more than make up for the unexpected times). But that isn't the case here; this was the only result there was going to be (with the lone exception, admittedly, of getting limp/reraised).

GcluelessNLnoobG

If those clowns call with 22 with an 80 bucks stack, 25o and 68o, I really don´t know where the big problem is with result a.

Do you even realise, that even in this stupid situation and the way Hero played it, after the dust is settled, he made a profitable play just looking at results since V2 actually called it off with 68o in a big sidepot? We basically got the nutworst scenario by both 25o and 22 outflopping us, and still, we made money by shoving.

you even said something like "slight favourite" preflop. I would advise you to look at an odds calculating software once in a while.

This isn’t that difficult.

5+1 IP, 6+1 OOP. Round up whenever applicable.

Keep adding 1 BB until you reach the sweet spot.

3+1 OOP (what op did) is not going to get it done.

What's this supposed to be doing? Giving us a guaranteed way of narrowing the field? Or giving us a guaranteed way of our opponents paying too much to see a flop?

It does neither.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I must have missed the part where you and everyone else fistpumped shipped the flop in order to collect your profit? Me (and everyone else who bet/folded to the flop action) got stuck $60.

Obviously we're not worried about the $80 stack. The other two bigger stacks got in just 6% and lol 3.5% preflop; they most likely were mistakes, but they're not nearly as big as you make them out to be. Me (and everyone else who bet/folded) lost 7% postflop as a fave. Who's making the mistake again?

GcluelessNLnoobG

course not.
limp calling a 7x raise with 25o and 68o. minor mistake.
also, the big stack V2 played totally mistakefree postflop.

You realize "7x" means nothing in itself, right? (i.e. it's totally stack dependent)

And while villains can certainly make mistakes postflop (ex. V2's postflop play is simply awesome, no doubt), I'm really not caring about that too much if I'm also making a mistake while someone else is cleaning up on all of us.

GcluelessmistakemakingnoobG

gg - you are either trolling or need a refresher on math, pot odds and equity.

I'm assuming it's the downswung talkin

I will respectively say the same to you Johnny (especially after my last post to you in the ~11 "outs" thread).

GandIknowbothofusarenottrollingG

That´s just BS.

I thought that I had posted $30-$35 as a better raise sizing, but I looked back and I must have edited it out of my posts. I have to edit and trim stuff down, otherwise I ramble.

It's important for the player to understand table dynamics and get a feel for what bet size will get folds and what will get a cascade of calls and a bloated pot. I don't think $60 is really an "lol sizing" if it gets what we want, which is a maximum of one call or taking down the pot. More than likely $35 is my bet here, $30 being ok too. When we only bet $20, there is $32 in the pot and only $17 to call, which a loose player will do. After that, we get cascading calls.

I agree that the difference between $20 and $25 is effectively nothing in terms of getting a fold. But the difference between $20 and $30 or $35 is not negligible.

So wait, you are saying that these mistakes are worse than us jamming in $480 after we bet, got raised 3x and 3x was flatted by V2?? Good god you guys must spew constantly...I think you underestimate how many times V2 has 55 or 33 here (and hence seriously over-estimate your "equity" in the pot) just because the result of this hand was whacko.

I can do a lot of math on any hand and assign a range to two V's where my shove has +EV...that is called data mining. But in real life, I am pretty certain that we don't see the above tabled by 2 villains anywhere often enough to make a shove with AA actually profitable.

Agreed, it is definitely a sweet science and sometimes all we can do is move towards a sizing that we think will get the job done a decent amount of the time and then deal with the times it doesn't.

Interestingly enough though, even a raise size to $35 creating a HU pot isn't necessarily ideal, as against the big stack it will only have gotten in 6% of our stack preflop where we'll now end up OOP to an SPR ~7 pot with perhaps a face up hand (unless you are constantly raising a large range preflop and double/triple barrelling air). Although if we ended up against the $350 stack or obviously the lol $80 stack this would be a fine result.

GpokerishardG

One thing you should be paying attention to here is that the existence of a short-stack hurts, rather than helps, V's set-mining odds. While it adds dead money, it also greatly increases the likelihood of a dry side pot. Results of this hand notwithstanding, H should be much less likely to stack off into a dry side pot. I certainly take this into account when I'm set-mining.

this is crazy. "slight favorite"??? He raised AA against 22, 52 and 86. Are you mad? That's a dream. Shoving the flop is a mistake but that doesnt mean raising preflop is even marginal.

I am not sure what is going in this thread. If people are going to call with this garbage great. Lead flop. Once the action is raise, call, all-in for less, your 1p hand is fairly marginal especially considering you are probably losing the main pot. Just fold when your opponents are telling you they have a big hand and everything else is fine.

just catching up with the rest of this thread. wow. I think I'm folding AA from now on...not worth the hassle figuring out that when my opponents are shoveling cash into the pot that I might be beat.

GG, can you point me towards 1 instance, where a world class player follows *your* ridiculous "stack size based preflop strategy of making sure the SPR is really high or really low with a big pair? Or even a training video that advises this for less-than-world class players? Serious question. For real - tell me how to find It.

What im saying, as has been advised to you time and time again, is to take off the training wheels so you can actually make a decent profit in today's games.

It IS something to consider, but it's so far down our list of priorities that it's just silly when every single preflop decision you make hinges mostly on this. It would be *so* easy to play against you. Do you ever raise to 60 as a bluff? (Without AA-TT, AQ+)

It's the other way around. That talking leads to downswinging.

**** SPR. Seriously.