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Folding the nutflush - sick hand Folding the nutflush - sick hand

04-26-2012 , 10:14 AM
Star City Sydney, $1/$2
Hero has ~$480.
Villain (megafish) covers. Saw this guy cracked aces with 64o calling a preflop raise.

Folds to hero.
Hero has AcQs in cutoff, and raises to $10.
Villain calls. Blinds fold.
Flop ($23)
(Jc 8c 9c)
Hero bets $15, Villain calls $15.
Turn ($53)
(Jc 8c 9c) (3h)
Hero bets $45, Villain calls $45.
River ($143)
(Jc 8c 9c) (3h) (7c)
Hero bets $75, Villain raises to $225. Hero folds

Questions:
1. What is villain's value range?
2. What is villain's bluff range?
3. What is hero's perceived range?
4. Could hero have played this hand differently?

Last edited by victory715; 04-26-2012 at 10:25 AM. Reason: forgot to add stakes
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 10:25 AM
yes- Hero should have called, at the very, very least.

I mean, are you really strong enough in your read to put him on the T?
Could he not have KT/ 54/ QT/ TT/ 88/ 72 ???
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 10:25 AM
I'm not sure I understand the fold here. If villain is a mega fish, isn't this a snap call? There's one card in the deck that beats us and my range for a mega fish is nearly ATC. If villain flips over the 10c, nice job hitting the straight flush and I'll accept getting stacked.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeyDontPLOThat
I'm not sure I understand the fold here. If villain is a mega fish, isn't this a snap call? There's one card in the deck that beats us and my range for a mega fish is nearly ATC. If villain flips over the 10c, nice job hitting the straight flush and I'll accept getting stacked.
You wouldn't be stacked if you just call, but I agree that I would call here. You're getting almost 3:1 and I think the villain has the K or some random bluff over 25% of the time.

Is the villain aggressive or passive? "Megafish" isn't a specific enough read. You say he is loose, so I guess he might call with weak draws on the flop and turn.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 10:35 AM
The day has yet to come where I fold the nutflush on a non paired board vs a megafish. I would throw in my car keys the moment I announce I'm all in.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 10:42 AM
Gotta go with the rest of the crowd. This is a call bare minimum dude.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 10:53 AM
Grunch.

AQ is a big hand. We should be making that **** like $15+ so we don't get cracked post by all the little fishies.

Don't want to bet flop, too drawy.
Or turn. You have Ace high for crissakes.

OTR. WTF is this?

You have the nut flush. Why would you not shove?

Honestly, this hand seems pretty bungled from the start. Too small raise pre invited this mess IMHO.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 11:03 AM
I dont think you couldve played this hand worse. I woulda c/c turn and lead out on river. As played, call river.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by troyt316
I dont think you couldve played this hand worse. I woulda c/c turn and lead out on river. As played, call river.
We lose value by just calling?
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePokerBoss
AQ is a big hand. We should be making that **** like $15+ so we don't get cracked post by all the little fishies. ... Too small raise pre invited this mess IMHO.
People often say stuff like this, but I don't see why $10 is such an absurd amount. I think $10 is fine.

I think the idea that we want to shut everyone out is somewhat misguided. If AT will call us for $10 but not $15, $10 is better. 7.5xBB is a huge preflop raise.

FWIW the last time I played $1/2 live, I saw only two openraises to $15 or more. Both times, the guy took the blinds and showed AA.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 11:59 AM
I love it if villain is passive. I still like it if he isn't.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 12:03 PM
snap call......

fold? lol

on a paired board i would fold but not this

he has the king way more often
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicham009
The day has yet to come where I fold the nutflush on a non paired board vs a megafish. I would throw in my car keys the moment I announce I'm all in.
there is a decent chance u will walk home buddy
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:13 PM
I have no problem with they way this was played until the river. Flop turn you can do a number of things which would all be acceptable. However, if you are going to fold to a raise because you recognize the straight flush then I see no reason to bet $75 on the river. I check the river, let the V make the bet I would have made and call. Then you not only do not have fold but if you're hand is good you're getting value on the river.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fivechips
I have no problem with they way this was played until the river. Flop turn you can do a number of things which would all be acceptable. However, if you are going to fold to a raise because you recognize the straight flush then I see no reason to bet $75 on the river. I check the river, let the V make the bet I would have made and call. Then you not only do not have fold but if you're hand is good you're getting value on the river.
If u dont bet the river; u lose value from all other flushes
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playertee
If u dont bet the river; u lose value from all other flushes
I don't see the value in folding to a raise -a bet puts us in that position. I would rather lose value and not have to fold the second nut. If he bets he needs to have the intention of calling a raise - which he did not. So if he simply thinks ahead here he can't bet if he intends to fold to a raise. I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking ahead and asking himself "what will I do if he shoves".

Also, you have what he describes as a "mega fish" - mega fishes bet their flushes - ever the baby ones. In fact a mega fish bluffs at this board. So I would assume he would be betting no matter what - so by checking I recapture the value and don't ever have to fold the second nut to a raise.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:44 PM
The ****?

Why would you fold. This is like a snap call.

Bet/call > check/call > bet/fold
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:50 PM
We can't fold here. A megafish has some random smaller club or total air or some other ridiculous thing often enough to call given the odds. Based on the way you played the hand, he can be firing this river with a lot of stuff since HE doesn't assume YOU have a big club.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fivechips
I don't see the value in folding to a raise -a bet puts us in that position. I would rather lose value and not have to fold the second nut. If he bets he needs to have the intention of calling a raise - which he did not. So if he simply thinks ahead here he can't bet if he intends to fold to a raise. I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking ahead and asking himself "what will I do if he shoves".

Also, you have what he describes as a "mega fish" - mega fishes bet their flushes - ever the baby ones. In fact a mega fish bluffs at this board. So I would assume he would be betting no matter what - so by checking I recapture the value and don't ever have to fold the second nut to a raise.
Fact of life...fish dont raise rivers as bluffs... they call! We should use this fact to always b/f for value whenever we believe we r ahead of their calling range...a mistake i see around here is ppl tend to love going to sd...i think checking is bad...and i think calling the raise is bad
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:52 PM
I'm not reshoving the river, but I'm sure as hell calling. Esp from megafish
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playertee
Fact of life...fish dont raise rivers as bluffs... they call! We should use this fact to always b/f for value whenever we believe we r ahead of their calling range...a mistake i see around here is ppl tend to love going to sd...i think checking is bad...and i think calling the raise is bad
1. Bet and then fold second nut to a raise

or

2. Check/ Check river and win pot

or

3. Check/Bet/Call river and win pot

I like #2 and #3 - you like #1?
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicham009
The day has yet to come where I fold the nutflush on a non paired board vs a megafish. I would throw in my car keys the moment I announce I'm all in.
LOL....this 100%
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneKidForTheTime
I'm not reshoving the river, but I'm sure as hell calling. Esp from megafish
With 110ish behind? I don't see how anything but a shove is the right play.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote
04-26-2012 , 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicham009
With 110ish behind? I don't see how anything but a shove is the right play.
Agreed.
Folding the nutflush - sick hand Quote

      
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