The game is playing tight and straightforward with no one getting out of line. Most players are 150-300BB deep.

40BB UTG min raises, I call with 55, 4 people behind me call. Flop K95 rainbow. UTG bets 3BB, I raise, button calls, UTG moves in for 40BB, I call, and now the button ships for 160BB. The button is a tight player who has check called the following hands: K high flush, top two on dry board on all streets. Is this a call with bottom set or a fold?

I guess it is a fold if the villain is as tight as you say. I only know one nut-peddler at my local casino that tight, she calls preflop with KK and would play the hand the same. Any other villain I think you are snap-calling, but if you are putting them on KK or 99 only, you have to fold.

If your going to flat call the UTG raiser when you don't have odds to do so to set mine. You got lucky and hit a set, get it all in.

Don't call UTG+ if your going to fold bottom set on a non connected board.

You are up against either 99 or K9--nobody in his right mind would smooth the button in this spot.

There are more combos of K9 by far if you have it in his range. Ship it in.

since you already have 40+ BB in you cant ever fold unless villan shows you his set im not folding.

In this specific spot i yawn and fold.



And i will throw some food for thought out since i feel lately a TON of strategy lines have been leaning heavily in this vein. Lately there has been a lot of talk about calling being the best option while i have stood on the other side saying fold. Not just in this hand, but in this entire forum everyone should stop and think about that fact that the one main flaw/leak in most low limit live players (reg as well as fish) is that they CALL to often when they should fold. i find it very interesting to hear the justifications for it as well. Just something to think about and its just my opinion, nothing more.

And also, folding after putting 25% of stack in the pot is not a mistake if you think you are behind.

Calling has always been a leak, in my last session I called zero preflop raises. First time I ever played like that. I realize that boring poker is what it takes to win.

ANL if you ask me its a fold pre, because a short stack raised, no implied odds to call. And a terrible position.

It's a Fcuking MINRAISE pre. Everyone and their mom is coming along. Not only that, but yes against a minraise from a 40bb stack you still have odds to call.


call pre, fistpump/touchself call postflop

Lmao is this a level, if you don't have odds to set mine without a 100bb stack, villain has 38bbs left in his stack after the raise. How the hell do we set mine vs a short stack. idc if he had a 100bbs its still not a call for me. I don't play lottery poker, go ahead and put your little cheese in there and watch get sucked up like a vacuum from late position.

I don't think you spend much time with pokerstove/doing math do you?

The rough math is 14:1 stack to raise size ratio to have odds to properly set mine. Not sure wtf "lottery" poker means.

How are you not calling even if he has 100bb? This seems nonsensical. Care to explain?

I'd say you're trying to level as well here, but it seems more likely you just don't know. Table is tight and straightforward - most live games would tend to have multiple people come along here instead of 3betting, EVEN if it was a minraise. You wouldn't want to be set mining multi-way for 2BB? Wat?

Lottery poker is when its 4 or more opponents in a hand. Can't bluff 4 players with profit.

So basically when villain minraise he either has a very strong hand or a meh hand. From my point of view I take a minraise as strength. But its going to be a family pot. I don't like family pots period.

I think more people need to learn different strategies then calling trying to flop a set every chance you get. I think its wishful thinking and poker is about skill not luck.
Playing sets oop with a hand like 55 is not good neither.

This hand should be a perfect example why you don't set mine from early position. I know its bad poker, it can never be +EV calling a shorty raise with a 5 in your hand.

So your reasoning is personal opinions and feelings, a fear of family pots, and no math/theory.

Let's try and breakdown some of your fallacies.

So we should only ever play hands that could possibly have semibluff value? I'm pretty sure >50% of the hands I play live are 3-4way post flop. Did you mean to say Can't bluff 4 players and show a profit? Is this english?

So by your belief villain is at the top of his/her range, and we are PROPERLY priced to call to set mine (and not only that, but if villain is at or near the top of his/her range then there is a greater probability that they will stack off postflop, because who ever wants to fold QQ+?) - yet you don't wish to do so because the pot could become multiway and you have a hand that is incredibly easy to play .... hmm. This doesn't seem right.

Oh so you're saying we shouldn't take the +EV situations when we get them? Why shouldn't we do that? My brain is starting to hurt.

If you "know it's bad poker", then could you explain it to me? Because I don't see an explanation in the above.

Folding any set on such an uncoordinated board,, is the most -ev move in this game

the button only has 3 hands here,, AA 99 or AK if he has 99.. pay him off and say nice hand, and move to the next hand

if he is as tight as you say.. he may also have K9,, he might have called because they were soooted

You win, play how yall want to play, I play my position then my cards. I don't set mine from early position,

Give me 55 on the button I'm in there vs this type of player.

Position is key, but a lot of players don't care about position. You seemed to be the type that plays his cards rather then the situation.


Just my thoughts good luck in poker brah.

Ok...well first off the initial raiser only had 40bb...making setmining a break even play at best if you hit and manage stack him. Granted, there are others in the hand, improving implied odds, but you didn't know that when you flatted, as they flatted behind you. Just food for thought

I honestly put this guy on pocket 99. He would have 3bet KK. But its tough to hit sets and even tougher to hit set over set. You really have to know the player in order to fold here. I've folded sets on the flop before, but I knew the player had to have the nuts.

You have to ask yourself...is this guy who flat called with a K hi flush shoving with anything you can beat? Is he doing this with AK or K9? I doubt it

Tough spot. I'd have to be there. 50/50 imo

But I would have folded pre without any action between me and the shortstacked raiser. Or if you wanted to go with pocket 55 you should have 3bet to isolate him

Just my 2c

This.

If you lose set over set, so be it. Take the cooler, move on.

my opinion is that folding pre for a minraise is really close and in the usual fishfest that these games are is still prolly +EV as long as you can count on no raise behind under normal circumstances.

Having the mantra we never fold sets in these games is no more than a perfect excuse for never having to make such a painful laydown regardless of how correct it may be. I can see why many take that approach. Its no different than the people who say they love to smoke, it hasnt hurt them much so far, and so they just are not ready to give it up. Doesnt matter the facts that they KNOW are true from the surgeon general. They have their own perfect excuse that gives them a free pass in their minds.

Obviously its all about ranges, and there are times that the best players ARE able to place certain villains on very narrow ranges. I happen to think this is one although if i were there in person certain other factors may make me feel differently. From the facts i have been given, its a fold.

I'm with Madmaniac here. This is a call all of the way pre. At these stakes, absent some different table history, you are much more likely to have other dead money come along than have a late-position raiser make pre a headache.

I have no idea what ILCD is saying about lottery poker, blah blah blah.

It would be possible to fold here, but I would need a perfect history/tell/villain to do it. This is a call like 99% of the time. I can't think of the last time that I had bottom set, reasonably worried that it was set over set, and the villain had it. I agree with ANL that this certianly seems ripe for the chance, but that is tough.

This hand DOES fall into the type that Tommy Angelo speaks of in talking about hands that really do not matter. I am picky and happen to LOVE the ability to fold KK preflop or bottom set when correct. I have a strong record of this myself and find it personally satisfying. Having said that, it really doesnt matter hourly rate wise hardly at all. ANY hand that does not come up often, isnt worth much time spending on it. We would be better off bantering about dead money orphan pots which is a huuuge contributor of hourly profit.

I'm just not good enough to fold a set here. I made most of my money this weekend on bottom or middle sets. 22, 44, 44, 22, 66, 77, 55, 66. Eight sets in a couple of nights. Probably some kind of record for me.

I just don't know too many $1/$2 NL players who are good enough to fold bottom set on the flop, on a dry board.

That said, I agree with ANL that if you're beat, you're beat, even if you've put in 25 percent of your stack.

Snap call you are probably 95%

It just depends ANL I can't speak for op nor you, there are certain players I will fold a set its read dependent and board texture. A lot of bums will shove 2pair+.

Ever since I been working with poker stove, I think middle pairs are good to setmine, something like 77+, small pairs get no love.

a voice of sanity in the wilderness.

Lol I have not flopped a set in weeks, if your flopping that many sets I hope you where racking in more then 500bbs.

I never flop them and then the ones I fold hit, that happens a lot **** pisses me off.

most pots were in the 200 BB range. I overplayed two of them on the flop so they really hurt the profit margin.