Well yes, folding is worse than flatting however if we are as bad as we played this hand than playing oop might be -ev this deep regardless so the ev neutral play might be more profitable.

Here's the realness: op isn't used to playing deep

I'm surprised at how off you are in this hand 11t and how adament you are about it.

Well I guess I'm not surprised about you being adament.

Flatting pf here is so ****ing bad

Flatting pf here is the equivalent of believing aces either win a small pot or lose a big one.

Also given the pfr size this is way more like being 200xbb deep in a 5T game and flatting there with AK vs given opponent is laughable

But you all know my opinion but hey flatting pf means we lose the minimum amirite?!

Ignorant statement of the year so far.

Neither line is 100% wrong.

The fact that you can't seem to see the merits in a pf flat in this situation as well as the merits of a 3! shows your inability as a player

I just realize 2 > 1 Johnny

I don't think it would be that terrible not to have a pf 3betting range oop against a good aggressive opponent. If you have a 3betting range, this hand should obviously be in it.

He's not good, villain is clearly a huge fish

What am I missing? To me this describes a pretty good player...

You didn't miss anything. 11t just wants to run over V 100% of the time, winning small pots and value own himself in the rest of the time

When you make a statement like this you should probably add some info as to why you think so.

Whether to 3b or not here depends entirely upon your 3betting range and your flatting range.

If you are flatting a lot, you prob want to flat this hand to strengthen your flatting range.

If you are 3betting a good amount and also will 3b bluff then yes by all means 3b

In this particular hand- If we are perceived as a nit, flatting is actually probably best as our range becomes less transparent. The deeper that stacks get -> preflop initiative declines in importance as much as position increases in importance.

Also another reason to 3b would be based on what villains defending range is. I'm not sure how we would know this without having a history 3betting him tho.

Ok, for ****s and goggles, let's run this hand with a 3!

CO bets 35
Hero makes it 100 (sound ok?)
CO calls, (because apparently everyone ITT says he will regardless of having no reads to know he will)

Flop ($205): K65 ss

Hero has to cbet. $135
CO calls, because he's LAGgy, and good and thinking he will at minimum float this flop.

Turn ($475): 6

Now what?
A check is an instabet by V because our range has few 6s but his has a ton
A bet might get a fold. It might get a call or a raise too. If he really is good and LAGgy, he's raising this repping a 6

River: 6

If he raised OTT, we can't do anything here. We have to give him credit for a hand at least = to ours, if not better. Now we're in a completely gross spot that we put ourselves into because we lead into a good LAG with little information about him for 2 streets

The reason why pf is a clear 3b is that villain is clearly continuing with dominated hands and is also not sophisticated enough to worry about playing oop when our hand is potentially face up.

If villain was not continuing with dominated hands flatting becomes better.

The reason flatting here is comical is because we are so deep that villain can often leverage us off of the best hand (A high) when we can't continue and without knowing he's going to 3 barrel a really high % we are losing lots of value when he checks sdv at the river.

It's just so not even close I'm flabbergasted I even have to explain this.

My average stack in this game is 400bbs over 1000+ hours in the last year - and I'm a decent winner in it.

You are basing your bold statements, that you believe as fact, on your own opinion. I'm basing mine on stats (see statement above) and the collective opinion of other (I assume here) good players.

That's pretty bad reasoning for why you shouldnt 3! fwiw.

Not helping the cause.

(@ Johnny)

Not sure who you're referring. If me, my hypothetical is more just to show we end up blind in hands more often than not in this particular case

If villain can often leverage us off of the best hand by using his position, why do we want to make the pot bigger? I really don't know what the best answer is here so I am just going to keep asking questions.

I think the point above yours is talking about something else - i.e. someone's attitude.

Sorry I thought you were talking to me Avaritia

I'd 3b pf, bet flop, ch call turn, chf river

Flop texture is nice since we have lol tptk but very few good runouts for the absolute strength of our hand vs board

The only possible reason to flat pf is for balance which is a breakeven strategy versus bad players

What is your 3! percentage preflop roughly 11t?

In position?
Out of position?

You are going to end up taking this exact line very often after you 3bet, which means you'll end up losing a big pot. Part of the reason to flat though, is to call down on boards like the one we ended up with against a presumably wide bluffing range, but if we fold the river that kinda ruins the plan. I really like the villains river bet sizing in this hand, it is a really good play.

-Villain is not oop, we are

- what gives you idea he'll continues with dominate Ax against a perceived nit?

There is a statistically significant % of flops/turns where he will fold out 25% equity whereas we will likely not be able to reciprocally call him down with our 75% equity because we lack position.