Played this one in my last session. Weird situation on the river. Curious if anyone ever finds a raise as a bluff in my spot here.

1/3. 9-handed.

V1 in SB - Played with him a few times. Seems to have a decent understanding of poker theory, but he's prone to tilting when he's running bad, as he was in this session. He switched seats twice since he joined the table a few hours earlier, most recently to be seated on my left. $300

V2 in CO - recently joined the table. No real history on him. Younger guy, Asian, seemed like he might be capable of getting out of line. $450.

Hero on BTN - running well after losing two buy-ins early in the session. Back to showing a profit on the session and big-stacked, now running over the table. $1200.

One MP limps. CO limps. Hero opens to $20 with QTd. SB calls. MP folds. CO calls. Pot $60 after the rake.

Flop is AKJ. Hero flopped the joint. Checks to hero. Hero down-bets to $15. Both V's call. Pot is $105.

Turn is the 4, completing any flush draws. Checks to hero again. Hero bets $35. Both V's call. Pot is $210.

River is the A, pairing the board. SB pretty quickly donks for $65, leaving $165 back. CO basically insta-calls, leaving $315 behind. Pot is $340. Hero?

In-game, I tank.

SB is trying to rep a boat, I think, but I'm not buying it. He would have had to flat/check-call the whole way with a hand that could have squeezed pre or x/r'd on a previous street. I'm putting him on some weak offsuit Ax combo that rivered trips and is block-betting for value, most likely AXx, blocking the nut flush. I'm fairly certain he'd just jam with a boat. I think he would have donked or x/r'd on an earlier street if he was on a flush draw. I'm nearly certain the A on the river improved his hand, and it would make sense for him to play his hand this way, on this board.

CO probably has a weak flush, at best, and just doesn't want to let it go. He might also have KQ/KJ/KT/QT, but it's hard for me to think he over-called the whole way with any of those hands, and is still calling, unless he has QcTc, but that's just one combo, and I'd have thought he'd donk or x/r on the flop or turn with QcTc.

It crosses my mind to raise, basically turning my flopped straight into a bluff, to get the CO to fold what's probably the best hand. The problem is that because I've been running over the table recently, I don't think the SB is going to fold often enough, after putting almost half his starting stack into the pot, especially if he's got the A.

If the SB has the A, he's not going to give me credit for a flush or a boat, and neither of these guys is likely to put me on a flopped straight the way I played this. He may decide this is the hill he wants to die on, and flick in the call.

If I raise, expecting the SB to call, but hoping the CO will fold, I'm going to have to jam, if I'm going to have any fold equity at all. But even then, I'd be jamming $315 effective into a pot that's likely to be $820 by the time it gets back to the CO. He'll be getting 2.6 to 1 on a call, and I'm not really in the business of trying to get opponents playing low stakes to lay down flushes by repping boats I don't actually have. Even if the SB folds, the pot will be $655, and CO will still be getting better than 2 to 1.

This spot is weird, because I know I should either fold or raise, but it feels crazy to fold a hand as strong as mine getting over 5 to 1, or turn a hand this strong into a bluff, when neither opponent has showed any aggression prior to the river, and the opponent who most likely has me beat most likely has a hand that isn't all that strong, but might seem too strong to fold getting better than 2:1 odds.

There just doesn't seem to be any way that a raise would get called by both opponents, and that my hand would be best.

Ultimately, I can't find the fold or the raise, so I call. Sure enough, SB turns over ATx, and CO turns over TX, I think T8 or T7, and scoops.

Bet large on the flop. Id go $80 to $150 depending on how the game is playing.

Id check the turn behind

River looks like someone has a flush. In game Id probably call but I think its neutral to slightly negative EV spot after some thought. Im never raising, people at these stakes are not folding a flush to a jam most of the time.

Yeah, in-game, having flopped the nuts and unblocking all the hands my opponents could continue with, I thought I should down-bet to keep them both in the hand. I was hoping one of them would see that as weak, and go for the x/r. But I immediately regretted that decision when they both just flatted, and I saw the 4c hit the turn.

I've found it's hard for me to give up the betting lead as the PFR, after drilling the flop. In-game, I was thinking I didn't want to give anyone a free card to draw to a flush they didn't already have, and it seemed unlikely anyone would have the nut flush draw on the flop, given the pre-flop and flop action. I'd have expected to hear from AcXc sooner. I thought I could get value from 2P and draws if I continued to bet small, and I'd get x/r'd if either of them turned the flush.

It definitely looked like someone had a flush on the river. That was my read. But I've played with the SB enough to know he'd have donk-led or x/r'd the turn if he had it, so I was pretty sure he didn't. I thought the CO probably did. But since the CO didn't donk or x/r the turn, and he didn't raise on the river, I was pretty sure he didn't have the nut flush. Again, I'd have expected to hear from AcXc sooner.

I agree that most people are never folding a flush, even the 3rd or 4th nut flush, even to a jam, even on a paired board. I can fold those hands, and I have, but I just don't see other players at low stakes doing it enough for me to think it's profitable to try to get people to fold. If I knew how V2 played, and if I knew he was capable of making a big laydown, I might have gone for it, but I'd never seen him before he sat down, only a few hands before this one.

I really wish I could have found the fold. I think the donk-lead on the river from the SB, on a nut-changing card, in a spot where I'm going to have all the strongest hands as the PFR who bet flop and turn, just had me so confused.

I was convinced I was ahead of the SB, and I was right, but it also seemed to me like the CO would have raised with a strong hand, or folded if he was afraid of a boat or bigger flush, so I thought the CO might have a hand weaker than mine.

It doesn't really make sense in retrospect, and if I had taken a little more time to think what CO might actually have, I might have found the fold. I can't think of a worse hand he could have there, other than a counterfeited 2P with KJ, or just some random Kx hand that's discounting anyone having an ace, when there are two aces on the board. Again, not knowing anything about the CO, I couldn't know if he would call the SB's donk light, getting >4:1, with me still left to act.

That's why I thought about raising, but decided against it. If I raise there, I'm only getting called by better, never by worse, and with the stack sizes being what they were, I wasn't sure if there was enough depth left to put enough pressure on the CO to force him to fold. If he started with $800 and had >$650 left, maybe, but he's only got $315 left in his stack and he'll be getting better than 2:1 on a call, so it seemed pretty sketchy for me to try to make a big play.

Getting better than 5:1, I don't hate my call. I just wish I could have either found the fold, or that I did jam, if only to know if it would have gotten the CO to fold.

Hey, OP, don’t post results for 24 hours as they bias responses.

Raise more on the flop, maybe to 35. You gave the draws great pot odds to call.

Turn idk. I’m probably betting here too and folding to a raise.

After a V calls three of your bets and donks a very wet board, I think you have to give up.

bet the flop big, there are many hands worse than yours that will call. i cant think of a single good reason to downbet here. bet at least $40. the general rule in NL is if a board smacks your range you should be betting big when you do have a hand, and not be deceptive. this is because deception doesnt work on high card boards because people generally dont make moves on them vs pfrs, especially multiway. save deception for boards that are supposed to miss you, like when you flop a set, trips, or a straight on middling boards like 566 or 679.

as played check turn. vs two people your hand is nothing but a bluffcatcher now.

as played fold river you beat nothing that takes this action.

I'm new to these forums. Is that the standard practice, to wait to post the reveal?

Yes. 48 hours is better. Or more if discussion is decent

Good to know. Thanks. I'll delay gratification with future hand histories.

V that donked isn't trying to rep a boat. He doesn't want to face a larger bet and thinks his hand may be good. Repping a boat means he would jam.

I think your hand is just strong enough to call river and doesn't have really good blocker properties for a bluff. ATo is cuspy as an iso raise, but I could see AcTx as a bluff here, getting some chopping trips to fold, potentially weak flushes, QT. AcQx is potentially a mix of call and jam as a bluff type hand. You want to block boats like AJ and flushes. Ac is great because it blocks the most flushes and blocks the most AJo, the most likely boat. As is also not bad because it blocks 2 combos of AJo and 1 combo of A4s. AsTc is attractive for that reason, especially given your read that that SB may have the Ac.

It's tempting to make bluffs out of hands with the Jh or Jd, blocking some AJo, but those hands don't seem like they block enough. Having a counterfeit two pair like KJ is always tempting to turn into a bluff, but I don't think the K is super relevant as villains probably won't have AK or KK. And I don't know that we would have a hand that had Jx and a club, unless we are iso raising QJo.

One thing I don't love about this spot for bluffing is that it is hard for SB to fold a flush. Maybe they hero fold a flush only because we are deeper with CO, so our jam looks scary, but I wouldn't count on it. So we have to put SB on a weaker hand that will actually fold to a 40% pot raise. If he folds, that leaves a 78% pot raise behind for cutoff. It's a big raise, but it is hard to get people to fold flushes.

Our bluff has to be successful almost 50% of the time to be profitable, and for it to get through both villains is always difficult. As our raise size becomes 100% pot to 150% pot I start to like our fold equity a little more. I just don't love our hand for bluffing here.

Seems like sound analysis. Thanks.

I wonder if CO would have folded if SB had just jammed from up front, to represent the boat. I think that would have been a theoretically sound play with the Ac in his hand, blocking the nut flush and semi-blocking some top boat combos. But I don't see very many players at 1/3 trying to rep boats when they have trips, especially not on wet board textures like this.

With just the T-high flush, and the Ac/Qc unaccounted for, I think the CO might have been able to find a fold if the SB jammed. With me as the PFR still in the hand behind him, and the way this was played, I could easily have the nut flush or a boat. SB could have some Q-high flushes, or, as far as the CO knows, perhaps occasionally show up with some weirdly-played AJ for a boat.

If SB jammed and CO folded, I would have snap called. Based on how I've seen SB play and the table dynamics in game, I was very certain in my read that he just rivered trip A's but not a boat.

This is one I definitely wish I had back. If I could play it again, I'd bet bigger on flop, for sure, maybe full pot. If both called, I'd check back on turn, and fold if either of them bet river. As played, I ended up trapping myself with my down-bet on the flop.

Preflop I would probably lean to overlimping 2 limpers but that's me.

I'm really not a fan of the small bet on the flop. I'm guessing theory nowadays has us betting small with our air & mediocre & monsters but I'm also guessing that's against a computer and not against your typical LLSNL lineup (or are all the computers in your game coldcalling raises and limp/calling?). We're either getting action on this board or we're not. So let's target the hands that are willing to give action (Ax, pair + draw, draws). The SPR is 7 - 5, so we can easily play for stacks by the river (and perhaps even by the turn against the smaller stack) with some big early bets. I would actually PSB the flop and think we're missing huge value doing anything else.

I probably check back 3ways on the turn when the main draw gets there.

And I just fold the river. The small stack doesn't have enough to bluff him off a flush. The bigger stack might have enough back to do so but I just don't think I'd attempt it. And it is still very possible for someone to be sitting here with a boat.

(I posted all of that before eventually reading the rest of your post, next time maybe don't post results as it will skew responses. I mean, we're getting good odds but overcalling seems incredibly meh if CO is remotely capable.)

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah, sorry about revealing the spoiler in the OP. Blame it on me being an FNG.

Not long ago, when I bet, it was almost always a big bet, with my entire range. Recently I've been trying to play a more disciplined style, one that's more willing to let opponents chase their draws.

Opening QTs is ambitious, I'll admit. But at the time, I was big-stacked and running over the table. In soft low-stakes games, I'll pretty much open any hand that seems playable for a raise on the BTN.

On this flop, my thoughts were - this board smashes my pre-flop open range, and isn't likely to hit either of my opponents when the CO limp-flats and the SB just flats. I've got a limp-flatter in the CO, who I know nothing about, and this tilt-prone guy in the SB who's probably defending way too wide, especially against me, the table bully, on the BTN. I want to get max value, but if I bet big, what hands can call me here, that weren't strong enough to raise pre?

Yes, I know the answer - mostly weak flush draws, a few inside straight draws, occasionally AJo or KJ if I'm lucky, some weak Ax or maybe even Kx hands with some sort of backdoor draw maybe. It just didn't seem like either of these opponents would be limp-flatting with any of the stronger hands from that mix.

In game, I didn't thing it was very likely that either of my opponents would have those sorts of hands AND be willing to call a bigger bet, but I did think that IF either of them had those sorts of hands, one or the other might get spicy and put in a check-raise, especially if my down-bet smelled weak. That's what I was hoping for. I figured it might be even more likely one of them would x/r with a flush draw, having no showdown value on this board.

I don't like checking back on a scary turn after c-betting flop. It seems like it invites opponents to put me in tough spots by taking the betting lead on the river. I'd rather bet turn, and either fold to a bet or check back on river in spots like this.

Here, I didn't want to turn my straight into a pure bluff catcher by checking back, and felt like there were still plenty of hands I could get value from, after both called my c-bet on the flop.

The SB's donk-lead on the river was the unexpected curveball here. In a higher stakes game against better competition and with deeper stacks, I don't think the SB would donk-lead the river with his trips, but if he did, he'd have bet enough to make the CO fold his low flush before action got to me, allowing me to call. If I was in his spot, with the Ac in my hand, blocking both the nut flush and semi-blocking top boats, I think I would have ripped it in if I was going to bet, or otherwise just checked and look to bluff-catch. His less than 1/3 pot bet is just begging to get called.

I felt like the only way I could win would be to raise, but my hand seemed too strong to turn into a bluff, especially getting >5:1 odds on a call, and I wasn't at all confident the CO would fold even a low flush, getting >2:1 after I raised.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the CO would have been MORE likely to fold if I raised and the SB called, even though his odds would have been even better than if the SB folded. I'm also still wondering if the SB would have called, or folded, even after putting almost half his stack in the pot. If I jammed, SB surely would have known he was beat, even with the Ac in his hand.

If I rip it, and SB folds, I don't know if the CO would call with just the T-high flush, on a paired board, with the Ac and Qc still unaccounted for, even getting >2:1. I just don't see many low-stakes players laying flushes down in spots like this, not that I see many spots like this.

That's really the point - I don't think I've ever been in a spot quite like this, getting >5:1 on a call with a strong hand, in a spot where I'm pretty sure I'm beat, knowing exactly what my opponents have, thinking I should raise, but not having the stack depth to put max pressure on my opponents.

limping this pre is bad. you want to build the pot pre in position with this hand and make it more likely you realize your equity. GG doesnt believe in preflop equity for whatever reason, probably because he is ultra-risk adverse.

The more limpers there are the more our preflop equity plummets with a hand like QTs as well as our FE overall. Heck, even in this case just 3ways we were dominated preflop (not a surprise as raising with a hand like this will often limit calling hands to dominating ones and fold out the ones we dominate).

So overlimping in position is hardly bad. My guess against 2 limpers is that you could probably go either way (FWIW I'm not hating on a raise, I just don't think it would be my preference) and there are pros and cons both ways.

GimoG

I don't hate the idea of over-limping on the button with a hand like QTs, but it'll depend on how many limpers are in front of me, who's in the blinds, etc. Here, I was mostly just trying to get a few folds with a hand that has some playability. The BB and MP limper were both prone to getting sticky with some sneaky hands post-flop.

Obviously, I got really lucky drilling the straight. I'd have played more cautiously if I flopped top pair, and a lot more aggressively if I flopped top two.

I was mostly looking for people's thoughts about the river, but I do appreciate the opinions about how I played earlier streets. The way this one went, I think I could have saved money betting bigger on flop and then just shutting things down on the turn. Like I said, I trapped myself on this one by betting as small as I did on earlier streets, and then had that really annoying river spot.

being dominated is much less a concern when you have position, initiative, and a suited hand, for obvious reasons. and you arent playing vs hands you are playing vs a range. with position and this hand you are doing great vs typical limping ranges. most people dont open limp ATs as was shown here, for instance. and loose players will call plenty of hands vs a range that arent dominating yours.

you also play a paint-by-numbers based, bot-like 66 BB strat that is not applicable to how most people play, so im not sure why you continuously post advice for people playing deeper as if it applies to all stack sizes.

if youre going to limp this hand why play it at all considering the high rake in your game? if you dont build a pot pre then like half of it goes to rake. maybe in your game you should be playing with 5% or less VPIP. have you tracked what hands are profitable for you? im guessing QQ-AA and thats it. why not just play those hands only and play games on your phone or something during the rest of the time? it actually might be a good experiment - try playing only QQ-AA for a few hundred hours and see what your hourly is.

All's I was responding to is your direct quote of "limping this pre is bad". You can certainly argue whether doing something else is more EV. But declaring that seeing a cheap flop on the Button with a speculative hand against a typical LLSNL lineup is bad is lol, imo.

And people don't open limp dominating hands? AQ/KQ/QJ/AT/KT/Axcc/Kxcc as well as sneaky big pairs are auto-raised preflop from all positions in your LLSNL game? Our experiences way differ if that is the case.

And again, I'm not even hating on raising here (I'm really not). But you're making it out like there's this massive difference in EV, and there simply isn't. There are pros (you've listed some) and there are cons.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I like isoing the hand pre unless villains are really tight limping, AQ, KQ type hands and just open folding weaker stuff. I am happy to take it down pre, but it is nice to at least get it heads up if possible. Especially when it's heads up, we are going to be able to win just by cbetting fairly often with betting leads and a range advantage. We can hit reasonably strong top pairs with our hand and flop a lot of decent draws and backdoors that give us barreling opportunities.

If we limp behind, at least BB is coming along and SB. I like our chances more isoing.

A lot of times be isoing, we build up a pot that we end up losing, but that's okay. As long as we win enough if the time for it to be + EV and we allow ourselves to protect our premium iso range.

You can safely heavily bet the flop here. You unblock hands that didn' t hit and plenty of aces would have hit and called a good sized raise. If there's a flush out there, yo can cut off their pot odds. It doesn't change what happens here but in the times that flush doesn't come you get paid.

The river as played should be an easy fold. The board is that wet. They've stuck around. There's plenty that beats you. The cutoff is playing like someone with a not great flush.