Live 1/3. Stacks $200 effective. Villain middle aged man, no real reads. Can be loose, calls with any pair. Have not seen him re-raise yet once.

Hero dealt 6/8 in middle position. Limps in, all limped.

Flop 7/9/10 rainbow.

Hero leads $20. One caller.
Villain min raises to $40.

Hero?

Even though min-raises from middle-aged men set off alarm bells, we flopped the second nuts, so I'm never getting away, especially since J8 is not a common hand to play, even for a limp. Sets and pair plus straight draw are far more likely

I re-raise now, as he's almost never folding here, and a fourth straight card or a paired board kills your action, or your hand. I'd go $80-100.

+1 To what Garlick said.


An alternative line is to just ship it on the flop here: if villain is raising as rare as you said OP, and your read based on observation is that his range is strong here you will get called with pretty high successrate.

What a flop overshove does is that it exploit a big leak that many villains suffer from: they are not capable of raise/folding, or they dont have a raise/folding range at all postflop.

Yeah for 66.6 BB's I'm getting it in. The question is how.

I don't wanna push him off his hand, so I would raise to an amount I think he will call. I guess jamming is ok but it kinda turns our hand face up.

fold pre in an un opened pot from MP though

Potsize raise would be around 180, we have around 180 left.

pretty clear shove imo

Yeah in this case i was a little bit to fast on using the term "overshove": but lets not caught ourself up with semantics sauhund, we are totally on the same level here

Ok to post results?

Disagree on this statement. Of course its a difference regarding what image hero has and some actual dynamics going on in game: but usually a pot sized shove or an overshove in some cases can leave your range more open and more uncapped compared to a smaller raisesize.

The main leak we are looking to exploit the maximum in these sorts of spots is the fact that many of our opponents at these stakes simply have a non excisting check-raise/folding range or a raise/folding range. When they raise they are looking to go with their hand more often than not.

yeah although I agree, we're still making a 3bet, and a min-raise from a MAWG (or a mabg even) could easily be a "lemme see where I'm at with AT" bet.

I'm not sure about the number of limpers but we have something like 177 behind a pot of ~95 after he min raises.

Where in MP we are is a little bit dependent for me. In earlier MP after only 1 limp or 2, I'm probably dumping it; it later MP after a couple of limps, I don't hate trying to get into a hand for cheap.

I'd PSB the flop which it looks like we've done.

I have a don't go broke in-a-limped-pot rule, but for 66bbs with the second nuts I'm ignoring that rule. There's already $100 in the pot and there's a bunch of cards that will slow down the action on the turn (board pairing, J/8/6 putting 4-to-a-straight). A guy who doesn't raise has just raised, so he's unlikely to fold. Plus there is another guy interested.

ETA: At these stack depths, I would chalk this up to a cooler. Nice hand, imo.

Gshippiptydoodah,imoG

No, it wouldn't.

I believe there were 4-5 limpers in the hand. Villain was BB, last to act.

So $12-15 pot. Flop I bet $20, call $20, raise $40.

Total is ~$100.

I have $200 ish so $175 back. I ain't folding 2nd nuts with 100bb's.

Shove flop. Any other sizing is committing anyway, and people rarely fold after raising the flop. If he has J8 it's a cooler since he has plenty of combos of 2p and sets in his range.

yeah

tell me what is pot size then bro

PF+20+20+40+20

ahem... potsize raise would be less than 120 in that case?
guess again

J8 is 100% in his range for sure, but so is every single other 2 pair and set combo. I also like jamming because he will never fold any of those hands.

I think a PSB raise would be a raise of $120 (so $20 to call plus another $120 on top for $140 total), no?

But obviously close enough to our remaining stack of ~$180 where the only real raise size is a shove unless we're planning on leaving a stupid small amount behind for the turn.

Gwouldn'ttrustmymathG

Potsized raise (assuming 5 handed to the flop) =

$15 (PF pot) + $20 (our flop bet) + $20 (one caller) + $40 (V's raise) + $20 (the additional amount we need to call to match the raise) = $115 on top, or $155 total

You can also check your math by looking at the odds V will be getting to call (a pot-sized raise always offers 2:1). If we make it $155, pot will be $15 + $155 + $20 + 40 = $230. V needs to call $115 more, so he's getting 2:1.

[QUOTE=gobbledygeek;49743055]I think a PSB raise would be a raise of $120 (so $20 to call plus another $120 on top for $140 total), no?


nevermind
was writing a long paragraph but rah just explained it nicely.
also, shortcut to calculate potsize is last bet or raisex3 + what´s in the pot prior.
pot is 10, you bet 10, I raise 10x3+10=40
40x3 + 20 (cold caller) + 15 (preflop)= 155 (we have to subtract our own bet)

yeah, thats where I went wrong in my first example

I jam,the results from this hand just prove that he has a wider limping range than most MAWG's.

Next time, wait 24 hours-ish before posting, please.

This isn't necessarily true, but would require more data to verify. The first question I'd ask is what are the strongest hands he has just called down with. I know players who would just call me down with bottom set because I always seem to have a straight or bigger set if they play more aggressively.

I play in games where the majority of players don't raise two pair on that flop and might fold to a jam from specifically me if they did raise with two pair.

Yeah, we're actually not liking this spot too much at a typical reggish LLSNL table. Because it seems as clear as crystal that (1) he's not bluffing, (2) he wants the pot to be bigger, and (3) he doesn't mind action. So we can guess that he's made the hand he wants to make (set, str8, or 2pr) and he's ready to show down.

We've got "the idiot end," and we're just hoping he has 2 pair. Not really an enviable spot.

Personally, I'm just calling and hoping to get a donation from the guy behind and a favorable turn card. Plus it's possible that V also has 68 and all a raise does is drive out the relatively dead money.

Not really. Typical reggish players aren't real proud of a hand like 78 at this point, and they don't want to reopen the action. Plus we can see 4 blockers (or 5, call it 4.5).

We're actually all on the exact same page, it's just we're defining our "bet" slightly differently.

You're including the original $20 we put in on the flop in your total bet size of $155 (perfectly fine). I'm not, which is why I'm putting in $135 *more* (also perfectly fine). i.e. we're both putting in $155 total on the flop to make a PSB raise, we're just describing it differently.

Gweallagree,wejustdon'trealizeitG