For those of you advocating check/call the flop - what the hell is your plan on the turn? You're basically hoping that the flop bettor goes ahead and bets turn around pot-size so that they're committed enough to stack off - which is so bad when you're trying to get stacks in.

It's really hard for us to lead turn after just calling the flop here - it makes our hand super transparent - any hand that calls that lead would have called a flop-raise and we lose FDs that call the flop raise on a non-heart turn and 2pr/sets that get it in on the flop on a heart turn.

So given that we would have to check the turn - 3 things can happen:

1. it checks through - which is an absolute disaster for us. Now we have to bet the river and allow opponents to get away from their draws cheaply and/or get away from made hands if a 4th heart comes at any point

2. Opponent bets stupid small - great now we have to raise, or we're stuck calling and then jamming the river (which has the same result as hand 1). However, calling flop and then raising turn makes our hand super transparent. Aside from the maxim that calling the flop and raising the turn OOP is the nuts like always - there's no hand that we can have that's playing like this except the nut flush. Smaller flushes and 2pr+ get away if a heart comes and flush draws are getting away with no heart (all of these hands are likely staying in on the flop)

3. Opponent Bets Big - well big enough that we can jam and pot-commit. Except that anything that they do this with on the turn they would have stayed in to our flop raise.

So really flat calling the flop is allowing us to get more money from exactly zero hands while causing us to lose out on picking up tons of money from all sorts of hands.

Calling flop is just bad. Don't do it.

riverfish,

You are leaving out the part where HJ called the raise out of turn and when we raise instead of flat, it gives HJ and the bettor a chance to fold and we end up with a tidy little profit of $65. Whereas if we flat, we will get to the turn with 2 players still in the hand and a chance to triple up instead of double up or both fold to our raise, which IMHO would be a disaster in this hand.

Yes, there are some bad turn cards for our hand but there are certainly more cards that help one or both of our opponents. By calling the flop it in no way turns our hand face up. And if it's that easy to call flop and bet turn and have everyone fold, then that should be your default play on monotone boards.

did you read my post? If you did, I think you missed some key stuff - reread it.

In case you did - I'll be clearer. You're worried about an extra $25, I'm worried about the best way to get my stack in the middle.

Also - nowhere in the entire post did I state, or even imply, that simply calling the flop turns our hand face up.

Also to your last point - what are the turn cards that help our opponents range that folds to a flop raise? Any heart that gives them a flush - but they likely would have called the flop raise with a flush draw. If they already had the flush or 2pr/set, then a heart scares them, while a non-heart - well you would have gotten them to commit on the flop anyway.

Not raising the flop misses out on an incredible amount of value - and at 1/2 our main focus has to be on getting the most value possible.

Edit - I'll be even clearer with my direction. Think about exactly HOW you're going to get all the money in the middle if you call or raise. Like plan out the turn and river with various cards and what you think your opponents would do with various parts of their ranges. When you do that (which I did), its very clearly a flop raise.

I don't know, maybe I misunderstood by the above quote from you?

Edit: You also didn't answer my question about both players folding to your flop raise. Is that not a disaster?

thats calling flop and raising turn, not just calling flop. Calling flop can mean a lot of things. But once we raise turn we have a flush. Raise flop when we can have other hands.

Off the top of my head, any off-suit K, T, 8, or 5 might make an opponent think they have the nutz when we flat. Better to have 2 opponents instead of 1. It's like you are just saying OMG "I haz the NUTZ" how can I get 1 opponents stack in, instead of how can I extract the most money from this hand.

Again, if both fold, that is a disaster. If they have a hand they are willing to call a raise with on the flop, their are a lot of bricks on the turn they will call with too.

This is how I seen it. On the flop we could have 2 pair/set or top pair with a strong heart or a flush already. Even possibly just Ah and we are trying to take it down here since we know they can't have the nuts. Raising the flop can look like many things. Also with HJ acting out of turn and us raising knowing he now has the option to fold, imo it can make it look more like a weaker hand.

On a brick turn whether we donk or check raise, it's pretty much saying we already have a made hand and we aren't scared of much. Especially considering its multiway. On a turn that brings another heart or pairs the board it will be very hard to build a pot and get stacks in unless we are beat or being called by Kh.

We dont know what the turn will bring. There are plenty of bad cards for us and them (8 hearts and 9 cards that can pair the board). Sure it could brick and we could get some more value.. but if it brings a scare card we miss so much we could have gotten on the flop while the opponent knows he probably still has equity.

This was already discussed earlier. Why not flat flop and let HJ in then lead turn for $60, since we didn't 3! flop and turn was irrelevant we know CO will still at least call if not raise (since they called the AI OTF). As an added bonus since the turn was blank we probably get another $60 from HJ as well. Then assuming CO doesn't raise we jam river ($150 into $235-$295 depending on HJ)... Not saying 3! flop is horrible but it could have been horrible if they both folded. A little mubsy IMO to be super scared of one turn card killing all the action. Weigh that against a x/3! on a monotone board, which one is scarier?

^^^ Preaching to the choir. Not saying a C/R is horrible, but I think flatting is better. People in favor of a raise seem to be ignoring the fact the we give both opponents an opportunity to fold the flop, AFTER, we know that the HJ has already called.

Without the info that HJ is required to be in the hand, I can go either way on flat or raise.

This just seems flawed to me. You're predicting everything to work out perfectly. We don't know that the HJ will bet into 2 opponents on the turn after being raised and someone calling that raise on the flop (who he didn't even realize was in the hand), we don't know it's going to brick, and we don't know if CO will bet again or it will check through.

Using the same logic it also could have been horrible if I flat then the turn kills action.

HJ already had 10$ in, so with a call on the flop we are only getting another 15$ from him not 25$ more. Yes the turn was a blank, we know that NOW. At the time there are 17 scare cards still possible (realistically less depending on villains holdings but 8 hearts and 9 that can pair the board), we aren't fully in the clear to keep getting value. IMO we should build the pot while it's easier to get value from many different hands.

So your original reason for this post was that you thought you missed value by only getting one of the V's stack by raising the flop. How do we guarantee we get 2 stacks to the turn?

And if 17 cards are perceived bad for our hand, then how many left are good? And if the board pairs, that's not exactly good for our holding.

Edit: My guess is the main V flopped a set and thought you were FOS and looked you up.

I posted this but I'm going to stress it further - the only way calling flop here is good is IF there's a large bet on the turn. But any hand that's betting big on the turn is calling a flop raise. And there are hands that aren't betting the turn that call a flop re-raise (fds, 2pr+ when another heart comes on the turn).

You guys are so fixated on 'omg if they fold the flop its a disaster' when if they fold flop to a re-raise they weren't betting the turn anyway, which is exactly the same goddamn thing.

You're not reading my posts or you dont understand the terminology. I suggested flatting flop to keep HJ in and then donking turn which means it cant check through we lead with $60. Worst case from your decision point you are +$25 (instead of a worst case of $0 with the given line), turn kills action and your donk takes it down. Best case HJ calls CO raises and we can get more chips. Which I thought is what the question was.

It's really hard to find two hands that can both call your x/3! (which is SUPER strong) here since we have the Ah. If we get one call then we can jam turn and get one stack like we did.

And I'm not predicting anything to go any certain way. Just suggesting ways to try to maximize value and not show tons of strength. It's so much different to flat and then lead. So many hands in both Vs ranges hit the muck here. You're only getting action from made flushes and sets for the most part. HJ could have something like KQ

Not here to argue though, just providing alternate lines as you requested.

Why are you getting so emotional? We can agree to disagree. Some turns could help our Vs and still leave us with the nuts, some turns could kill action. Honestly, I could argue the range of hands that can call a check / 3 bet on this board is much smaller than the range of hands that will call a $60 flop lead into a $120 pot on a random turn card after both players have shown interest. Which is the bigger gamble?

This isn't an agree to disagree - it's a very clear raise.

You keep talking about hand ranges that can call/check/etc but haven't shown any indication that you thought through those ranges and actually identified which ones can can call with the action you suggest given various turns and whether there are any in that range that aren't just calling the flop.

But what is not the same is we already KNOW that we will go to the flop 3 ways. That's a good little piece of information to have when we make our decision whether to raise pre-flop.

We have $250. If we fold out the HJ, we can only win $250. But if HJ comes along, we have the opportunity to make $500 IF we can get both stacks in instead of one.

If the "flatters' are fixated on what if both fold, the "raisers" seem to think the only value in this hand is made on the flop and not later streets because "what if a scare card comes and they fold?"

It is kinda the same thing except we have the ability to win $500 vs. $250 guaranteed if we flat and not raise.

By flatting the flop, our range probably looks like the naked Ah, top pair plus the Ah or OESD. Granted a set would probably bet out, but there are a lot of holdings we can have that aren't the nut flush.

If we check and the turn checks through, it is not a disaster. We can make a donk polarizing bet on the river that will really look FOS. How many times have you taken this line with just the Ah and gotten looked up light? Also the agressor in this hand has a greater than zero chance of raising the turn for us. And at these stack depths it pretty much commits him.

turn checking through is a disaster because now we just won the minimum in the hand. And overcalling the flop then donking the river isn't getting looked up light nearly often enough to justify taking that line.

And again you keep talking about the trying to keep people in to win their stacks with no plan on how to do so other than "hope we get bet into again". Range villains and think about how they react to your suggested action vs my suggested action on various turn cards.

Again I will ask which you haven't answered. If the above bolded is true, why don't you take this line on monotone boards and print money?

And I have a wonderful plan on how to win the most money in this hand. Against multiple opponents with the NUTZ at the time, with a raiser already interested in the flop, we can flat. If the flop was checked to us, I am all for raising. Either they have a hand they can continue with or they don't. This is not that spot.