V1 (MP, 300) Weekend rec, generally passive and speculative.
V2 (CO, 700) Young weekend rec, occasionally aggressive but never gotten out of line.
Hero (BB, 800) Very tight and winning image, only shown AKs and AA.

1-3 NL, Friday night.

V1 limps MP. V2 raises in the CO to $12. The SB cold calls. Hero in the BB has KQ and elects to make a speculative overcall OOP. V1 limper calls.

The pot is $42 with four players to the flop which is JT9. Hero checks. V1 bets $20. V2 raises to $60. SB folds.

I was genuinely overwhelmed by what to do in this spot, playing for deep stacks with a nut hand that can only get worse with half the deck being bad cards. Would you just cold call the raise, 3bet small, 3bet a standard size, 3bet overbet to some amount, or simply 3bet shove for the PFR's 700? What's your plan on various turn cards? Do you plan to go away easily if a board pair or flush card comes out? What line maximizes EV? Could a preflop fold or flop donk have been better?

Flat and raise are both reasonable, i prefer flat

i would maybe make it like $150? he might come over the top for stacks w a set (which are all in his range) thinking you are making a small raise w a draw. If he has a draw you are offering him $90 to call for $270- he'll probably continue w a lot of hands. Then the pot will be $360 on turn, w $540 behind?...then I don't know what to do because I'm still learning how to deal with deep spots lol. If it's a brick and he has a set it would probably go bet/GII if its a spade, evaluate? He's more likely to have AK of spades as tight PRF (vs other FD), but i think really he might go into pot control mode w a set (more likely). If he has a combo draw he likely won't fold...



"Flat and raise are both reasonable, i prefer flat"

im curious about the reasoning here...? for stack protection?

Even though we're getting a good price (especially at this stack depth) I still fold preflop due to being OOP with a dominated hand against what is likely a non-moron. If the SB/limper are two of the biggest whales in the casino then more argument for a very speculative call here, but otherwise, meh, imo.

We can either donk this flop (I would PSB it if donking) or check/raise. I'm fine with either route.

I think this board is way to drawy to flat at this point so I'm raising. I'd probably raise an amount that targets the donkers stack while setting up a shove against the raiser. So I'd probably just ship whatever the donker has left.

ETA: My large check/raise is based on what I feel people do at this level, and not everyone agrees. But if donker is on a flush draw (or possibly even OESD) he's just likely not folding to any bet here; he simply didn't come to the casino to limp/call a raise preflop, flop a flush draw or OESD (or both), and then fold with this much money in the pot (pot odds!). Not everyone agrees with that, but that's how I think most poorish players think in this spot (and this really goes back to our only reason to call preflop). As for the raiser, if he's a good player we're likely not getting too much more off of AA/KK/etc. no matter what we do; but even a good player is rarely getting away from a set here, and even QQ is going to wager a call a decent amount of the time, and if he has a flush draw he likely has a pair or straight draw to go with it (and again will be tempted to call a huge bet). So I simply target the top end of peoples ranges (the hands they are likely willing to call a huge bet with) while ignoring the smaller end of their range (hands which are fairly weak and are likely folding to a raise anyways). But I seem to have a huge disconnect with the rest of the forum regarding this, so whatever.

GcluelessNLnoobG

shove

I prefer raising here based on V descriptions. I expect passive V1 to shut down after being raised and called by the tight guy in a multi way pot with all but the very top of his range. I expect V2 to also have some check backs OTT after getting called twice by the passive guy and the tight guy and being able to take a free card in position. If one or both of the Vs was more aggressive I could get behind a check raise on safe turns but they are not. So I like to raise now. There's about $120 in the pot, I'd probably size around $140. If we get two calls we can jam all safe turns. If we get one call we can bomb the turn and eval river. Obviously if anyone jams we are calling. I'm continuing on A, K, Q, and under card turns. I'm check eval on spades or paired boards.

200+ bigs eff...3 bet pre, get it heads up, take control of the action, use your stack, or just flop the nuts.

<100 bigs eff, I’m folding pre

To answer your question though...
I like building the pot on the flop and if I can just mention one reason it would be this: prevent backdoorage

I would 100% 3b pre here, or fold. You do not want to be playing OOP in a 4-way pot with K high, unsuited. Ever.

SB and limper are fairly capped here anyway, 3b pre gets a lot of respect and even if SB calls you have position and good equity

I would raise the 60 to like 180-240? Line by villain seems like he won’t be folding. I like flatting I guess but time to build a pot and a lot of turn cards are very bad.

Agree I’m not a fan of the call pre per say. I would rather 3 bet or fold oop. Prolly 3 bet to like 45-60 if Villians aren’t complete nits. Nothing wrong with folding pre either I feel.

I don't hate the flat call preflop. I don't want to 3bet this hand since I expect to get flat-called often and we have better hands to use for light 3bets (KQs, AJs, etc). I can see merits to both calling and folding depending on whether V2 is opening wide or narrow ranges. Now that we flop the nuts, I'd reraise to 240 and GII on any non board-pairing turn. Good luck.

Flat is best imo. Keep in mind that 3 betting flop here flips your hand face up almost.

V1 can have worse straights and be drawing dead. If he jams you can easily get all in on the flop vs V2 with lots of sweet dead money vs a hand that likely has 35% against you. Even if V1 just calls, he has a lot of Aj/kj/QJ in his range that have insignificant equity.

If you flat you also keep flush draws in your range that will slow V2 down if a spade hits (less likely to pile in money on you when one of the scare cards hits). You can check through spade turns and value bet the river barring board pairs.

If turn bricks your equity vs sets increases drastically and you'll be able to check/shove as a 4:1 favorite vs sets (v2's most likely holding).

3bet or fold pre.

Anyone wanting to flat this flop really needs to take a deep look about whether they're thinking about the game correctly. Any answer other than raising flop to ~240 and planning on jamming a safe turn is categorically wrong.

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I hadn't realized that the preflop overcall is probably a mistake. I figured I was playing standard up to my flop decision point. I am probably calling too much with potentially dominated offsuit hands OOP preflop in multiway pots, perhaps overly optimistic about hitting a monster or else my ability to read rec opponents' hands in small pots and realize a postflop edge.

In the actual hand, I was terrified of bad runouts so I decided to take the easy way out and simply c/r 3bet overbet jam on the flop for V2's 700. I thought V1 would have a drawing or value hand that he wouldn't mind getting in. I expected him to call. I also wanted to avoid tough decisions against V2's deep stack later in the hand. However, V1 actually snap folded. That makes sense in hindsight because jamming in 700 all of a sudden turns my hand face up as the nuts. He probably wouldn't want to chase his previous $32 investment with another $280 on a flush draw, much less a one card OESD to chop. V2 sighed and folded AA face up which wasn't surprising.

I got the job done and won the (relatively small) pot, but I felt that my fear of tough future decisions cost me money that I could have otherwise made by playing my nut hand in a less risk-averse manner.

It sounds like beyond the questionable preflop call, a flop c/r to 140-240 and jam on safe turns is the most profitable approach. However, I would still feel pretty lost in the hand on a spade or board pair turn, which is over 1/3 of all turns. I might just c/f to a healthy bet from the PFR in those situations. A turn king or queen would also be tough although I'm probably just firing away and going broke against the nuts on those cards.

Folding preflop is very bad. We should be flatting some hands here from the BB and KQ is a strong hand.
Standard call for me.

On the flop I like to c/r to about 220-260 and gii on a brick turn.

We saw a bet and a raise so mine as well reopen the action in case we coolered someone with a set or smaller straight.

Stop playing scared people. KQ is easy call vs young received CO opening range. Fact we are getting 3:1 on our call makes it even easier. See same guys saying fold KQo, advocate calling A3s in similar spots.

KQo is going to show a profit 4 ways even OOP. Definitely 3 betting a good portion of time also.

As played. Have to raise on flop. Their ranges are uncapped and if we feel we generate to much fold equity with raise. Start mixing in a lot more bluffs.

You are never going to make real money if you don't take risks. Shoving is a terrible idea. Since you have a very tight image, raising the flop will almost turn your hand face up. A player like you is almost never raising with less than a flopped straight. I really like the idea of flating the flop and then check raise the turn if a blank comes. If the board pairs or the flush comes you can start evaluating... but man you cannot play scared all the time. The value that you are losing right now will really cost you later. Look at this video and see what i'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od1VDkOM5Jc

Overcall? I have never heard that term before. What does that mean?

There's already an open limper, so a raise to $12 is quiet modest at a low-stakes live table. I usually open raise for $12, against limpers I raise more. Generally speaking most players will raise limpers a lot more, if they have a premium holding. Dunno about V2 though, do you have a read on his betting patterns PF?

I think this is an easy call most of the time. Folding seems too weak, especially as you are getting a great price from the BB, and your hand is good.

3-betting is dangerous, as the only hands that V1 or V2 will call/4-bet with, are hands that will crush yours. Ones that don't will fold. Plus any hand you play will be OOP. Do you really want to play a big pot OOP with a hand like KQo? You would need a really good read on V2 to know that he is raising light, to make 3-betting the right play here. Its totally possible that he might be, so something to think about.

Anyway, a flat call is the play you made.

Its Christmas time on the flop. Lets think about the ideal situation from here... and that would be getting all the chips in right now. Another spade coming makes your life very awkward. If the other players don't have a FD, they won't want to put much more in the pot on the turn or river. If they do have a FD and make the flush, you're going to have to make hard decisions on the turn and river. Similar problem if the board pairs, although I think the board pairing on the turn is better than another spade, for your hand.

Now lets think about what V1 and V2 have. From your write-up V1 is a passive fish. He's cold called a raise OOP, after OL. Now he bets into the original raiser for half pot, on a wet board, with three players still in the hand. Hmmm sounds like he has something. Something pretty good that he'll want to continue with. Its probably not a set, but 2pair, or a pair with a OESD, or a lower straight, or a FD with a pair, or a high FD.

V2 sees this donk lead into him on the flop, and then re-raises him, with two other players to act behind. V2 has something good here as well. AA, KK, and QQ all make sense. So does JJ, TT, and 99. AK, AQ, (and maybe A9, or 8) are also in his range. He could have KQ too including KQ, and AJo. Last but not least, maybe 87s. That's all the hands he has here, that's he going to re-raise with in this spot.

I think V1 wants to play a pot, and will continue with his hand. Charge him to suck out. Also if he does call or raise your 4-bet, it will likely drag in most of V2s range, building a massive pot when you have the nuts!

V2 will fold AA, KK, AJo here if you 4-bet the flop, and he has half a brain. I think he will continue with QQ, especially if he has the Q of spades. He continues with all his sets, and probably want to get AI right now too. Its a dangerous board for those hands. The strong broad way hands with spades will have to play especially if Mr Donk hops aboard the value train. Dunno about 87s if its not 87

Calling the $60 only allows you to either be drawn out on cheaply, and be OOP OTT and river. Or a scare card comes and you action gets quashed.

Raise now... the question is how much. I think make it something like $250 is good. If you get flat called by V1, then I think V2 is jamming here a lot. Ditto if V1 jams.

KQo is an easy 3b vs a young perceived CO open range and a capped limper/capped SB imo.

A3s >>>>>>> KQo here as a flat, A3s plays well multiway and coolers a lot of hands. KQo doesn't. but A3s is ofc fine to 3b as well.

Flop should be a snap 3b, not close esp vs a rec. Vs a reg I could consider calling and most likely calling but flop isn't close when you got 2 fish in the pot on a draw heavy board and lots of perceived bluffs/worse value in your range if they got sets/two pair/lower straights, wouldn't even be surprised for them to stack off QQ-AA here at all.