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Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Is it ever correct to fold a full house?

09-28-2018 , 01:40 AM
1-2 NL Holdem cash game.

Hero has about $400 and has been playing pretty tightly.

Villain 1 has about $500 in front. Villain is ultra-ultra tight. I hadn't seen him raise once in about 2 hours of play. He built his stack by flopping a nut flush against a smaller flush and a loose player holding 2 pair with a short stack.

Villain 2 has about 200 in chips.
Hero is in the cutoff, Villain is in mid position.

Villain 2 is UTG and raises to $7, Villain 1 raises to $25. This makes me think he has Kings or Aces. Hero is holding 6s-7s. Hero calls. Villain 2 calls.

Flop comes 2d-6h-6c "BINGO"

Villain 2 checks, Villain 1 bets $50. Hero calls. Villain 2 folds.

Turn card comes a 7d. "More BINGO"

Villain 1 looks nervous and worried and checks. Hero Checks.

Turn card comes the As.

Villain grabs all of his chips and he's shaking violently. I mean violently. His face turns bright red and he stutters out ah..ah..ah.all in as he shakes.

Automatic call regardless?
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 02:12 AM
Don’t call an eighth of your stack preflop when the “really tight guy” three bets and you have the 7 high
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenewoldpro
1-2 NL Holdem cash game.

Hero has about $400 and has been playing pretty tightly.

Villain 1 has about $500 in front. Villain is ultra-ultra tight. I hadn't seen him raise once in about 2 hours of play. He built his stack by flopping a nut flush against a smaller flush and a loose player holding 2 pair with a short stack.

Villain 2 has about 200 in chips.
Hero is in the cutoff, Villain is in mid position.

Villain 2 is UTG and raises to $7, Villain 1 raises to $25. This makes me think he has Kings or Aces. Hero is holding 6s-7s. Hero calls. Villain 2 calls.

Flop comes 2d-6h-6c "BINGO"

Villain 2 checks, Villain 1 bets $50. Hero calls. Villain 2 folds.

Turn card comes a 7d. "More BINGO"

Villain 1 looks nervous and worried and checks. Hero Checks.

Turn card comes the As.

Villain grabs all of his chips and he's shaking violently. I mean violently. His face turns bright red and he stutters out ah..ah..ah.all in as he shakes.

Automatic call regardless?
Yes we can fold boats and it isn't that uncommon. Here are some boats we might fold pretty often:

A6 on K66K3
44 on 45777
22 on 3333 (well technically we had a boat and have quads)

Folding a boat on a single paired board is much harder but may occasionally be the right play.

-----

Now your hand...

Fold pre. Calling a raise with a guy behind at these stack depths is a mistake.

Raise flop. Flatting is a mistake.

Bet turn FFS. It's going to be hard to stack V1 checking back here. Bad mistake.

River is tricky the way we've played the hand...what do we think he has? If I know he doesn't raise/call AA (instead 4 betting them) or open A6 UTG then we lose to very very little. We really just lose to 66 and 77 which he could have but it's two freaking combos, and his weird reaction was delayed until the As landed making these hands even more unlikely. So if this is my judgment of V1 I call.

However if he's weak tight and raise/flats with AA I think with this tell he has exactly AA. Our pot odds suck so I can fold 76 here.

Tank and watch the guy as long as you can. Ask him if he has aces. You would be surprised how often recs give themselves away by reacting with surprise to a question. Make it short like "Aces right?" rather than "Hmm...I am thinking you just filled up with aces" as the latter gives too much time to mask surprise. Or just by waiting and watching them you notice his pulse, breath, or shaking eventually slows down (speeding up is more indicative of a bluff).

If we had raised the flop and/or bet the turn we are never folding but as played against the right villain I could find a fold. And this sounds like such a villain. I mean what hands could he have where the As makes him shake violently, stutter, and blush? AK? No. A7? He might shove this but he probably has no A7 combos and wouldn't be this excited with 2p. A6? Sure, if he has any A7 combos but he's a nit so I doubt he's opening A6 UTG. 66? Maybe...but if he looked calm on the flop and turn and then went nuts on the river I severely doubt he flopped quads. 77? Also maybe but again I would expect the tell on the turn rather than on the river.

But we lose to 66, 77, A6 and AA so it doesn't really matter.

Vaguely possible it's an I'll conceived bluff. Sometimes even nits will try bluffs and then they can't keep it together. The one thing that makes me think a bluff is possible is the blushing. That's more associated with bluffing than betting the effective nuts. However, the shaking and stuttering (especially shaking) are more indicative of the effective nuts.

One more thing...make sure the tell is genuine. It's hard to fake blushing so I'd be pretty confident it's genuine but exaggerated shaking and stuttering are easy to fake. Real tells tend to be subtler than their fake counterparts.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
Yes we can fold boats and it isn't that uncommon. Here are some boats we might fold pretty often:

A6 on K66K3
44 on 45777
22 on 3333 (well technically we had a boat and have quads)

Folding a boat on a single paired board is much harder but may occasionally be the right play.

-----

Now your hand...

Fold pre. Calling a raise with a guy behind at these stack depths is a mistake.

Raise flop. Flatting is a mistake.

Bet turn FFS. It's going to be hard to stack V1 checking back here. Bad mistake.

River is tricky the way we've played the hand...what do we think he has? If I know he doesn't raise/call AA (instead 4 betting them) or open A6 UTG then we lose to very very little. We really just lose to 66 and 77 which he could have but it's two freaking combos, and his weird reaction was delayed until the As landed making these hands even more unlikely. So if this is my judgment of V1 I call.

However if he's weak tight and raise/flats with AA I think with this tell he has exactly AA. Our pot odds suck so I can fold 76 here.

Tank and watch the guy as long as you can. Ask him if he has aces. You would be surprised how often recs give themselves away by reacting with surprise to a question. Make it short like "Aces right?" rather than "Hmm...I am thinking you just filled up with aces" as the latter gives too much time to mask surprise. Or just by waiting and watching them you notice his pulse, breath, or shaking eventually slows down (speeding up is more indicative of a bluff).

If we had raised the flop and/or bet the turn we are never folding but as played against the right villain I could find a fold. And this sounds like such a villain. I mean what hands could he have where the As makes him shake violently, stutter, and blush? AK? No. A7? He might shove this but he probably has no A7 combos and wouldn't be this excited with 2p. A6? Sure, if he has any A7 combos but he's a nit so I doubt he's opening A6 UTG. 66? Maybe...but if he looked calm on the flop and turn and then went nuts on the river I severely doubt he flopped quads. 77? Also maybe but again I would expect the tell on the turn rather than on the river.

But we lose to 66, 77, A6 and AA so it doesn't really matter.

Vaguely possible it's an I'll conceived bluff. Sometimes even nits will try bluffs and then they can't keep it together. The one thing that makes me think a bluff is possible is the blushing. That's more associated with bluffing than betting the effective nuts. However, the shaking and stuttering (especially shaking) are more indicative of the effective nuts.

One more thing...make sure the tell is genuine. It's hard to fake blushing so I'd be pretty confident it's genuine but exaggerated shaking and stuttering are easy to fake. Real tells tend to be subtler than their fake counterparts.


It would be awesome if he has 66 cause we can call for a foul deck.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k
It would be awesome if he has 66 cause we can call for a foul deck.
Lol whoops. Super bad beat jackpot!

Okay so down to 1 combo of 77 if he's not the type to flat AA or open A6
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 07:42 AM
Fold to 3bet

Just shove flop or bet turn. You put him on an overpair so why is he any more likely to call it on the river than turn. Actually if an ace comes could kill your action vs KK.

Only thing turn check acheives is allowing AK to catch up or him to bluff so as played I'd be calling.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
Don’t call an eighth of your stack preflop when the “really tight guy” three bets and you have the 7 high
I wouldn't mind the call if stacks were deeper and Hero could see that the BTN was getting reading to fold, since Villain is OOP and is likely going to play his hand face-up. It's not like we ever plan to win at showdown with 7-high
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 01:23 PM
He has AK, he just doesn't know what to think about the 66, he's scared ****less of them. Call everytime.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-28-2018 , 01:57 PM
He's betting $425 into $175, so I don't think a fold is necessarily a gigantic mistake if he's the nittiest of nits.

That being said, I don't really ever expect him to show up with AA here. Why would AA check the turn (unless he truly is a super-nit both pre- and post-flop)?

It seems a lot more likely that he has AK here than AA, based on the line taken, and he has no idea what to do so just pushes it in. So this comes down to whether he 3bets AK or not - if he does, I call. If he's the type of nit who doesn't, I fold.

This hand would have been much easier to play if you simply bet the turn like you should have. Overpairs aren't folding and the value in letting AK catch up isn't worth it.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-29-2018 , 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krilleater
He's betting $425 into $175, so I don't think a fold is necessarily a gigantic mistake if he's the nittiest of nits.

That being said, I don't really ever expect him to show up with AA here. Why would AA check the turn (unless he truly is a super-nit both pre- and post-flop)?

It seems a lot more likely that he has AK here than AA, based on the line taken, and he has no idea what to do so just pushes it in. So this comes down to whether he 3bets AK or not - if he does, I call. If he's the type of nit who doesn't, I fold.

This hand would have been much easier to play if you simply bet the turn like you should have. Overpairs aren't folding and the value in letting AK catch up isn't worth it.
I see lots of people check overpairs on the turn when the board is paired. They're scared we have trips and want to pot control.

Jamming 425 into 175 on a paired board with AK is weird. But what makes it really weird is the shaking and stuttering etc. Is he really THIS excited that he rivered TPTK that his composure just falls to pieces? If so he would have to be the rankest amateur. But rank amateurs are usually LP not nits. Nits have enough experience to know hand strength (in the absolute sense at least and usually relative).

Totally agree the decision is way easier if we had raised the flop or especially bet the turn. At that point we're facing a much smaller bet and can't fold even vs. a nit.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-30-2018 , 01:35 AM
Fold pre.

I actually think flatting flop is fine on this bone dry board against an uber nit. We are in position right? We can always make sure a bet goes in on the turn and if we think he has QQ-AA there aren’t too many action killing turns. Raising is reasonable though for sure.

As played we really really need to be betting the turn. There’s no reason to check back here. We hit a miracle and we have a monster hand against what is likely a very strong hand for our opponent, time to bet.

River...I wasn’t there so it’s tough to say. In general, no, you should never be folding this hand on the river. Some guys will just always have AA here though but you have to be really sure to fold.

I probably just call, too often I give people credit and then they have something random like KK and just shat themselves when they saw the A. They don’t want to check and then have to make a decision. However, I can definitely name a few older regs in my room who I would fold to.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote
09-30-2018 , 03:05 AM
Stop playing "BINGO". Play "POKER" and fold pre.
Is it ever correct to fold a full house? Quote

      
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