This may be an easy decision, but I can't quite decide... Help me out?

Game is $2/$5.
Stacks about $500 effective.

UTG is a bit LAG. CO is a bit TAG.

UTG raises to $25.
Hero calls $25 from mid position with Ah6h.
CO calls. SB calls. BB calls.

The pot is $125.

The FLOP comes: 5s - 7h - Qh

Checked to the CO.
CO bets $80.
UTG raises to $265.

Hero has an overcard, the nut flush draw, and a backdoor straight draw, but currently only ace high. Direct odds are a bit less than 2:1. There is some implied odds but also some risk of being squeezed. I think it's a call with one opponent. But it's harder to say against two. Bottom line: is this a fold?

Hero calls $265.

CO raises all-in for $211 more.
UTG folds.

It's an easy call here. Almost certainly a made hand vs a draw. Hero now getting better than 5:1.

Hero calls $211.

Runout comes: 8s - Js.

Hero has Ah - 6h for ace high.
CO shows 7d - 5d for two pair.

CO takes down $1340.

So question is, does hero fold to the first raise? I'm torn because, direct odds says no, and implied odds may barely get you there, but that's assuming you are always behind. Sure, you usually are behind, but people do bet draws... I feel like it's "close" but that's a cop-out.

Thanks,

Dodge

I don't think you're deep enough to justify a call on the flop here at 500 eff.

fold pre. a baby suited ace doesn't play well if it gets heads up vs a lag, not to mention if anyone after you raises him but as played you're not getting odds to flat and chase. I would only flat with a NFD if odds were favorable, or preferably, I would raise/jam if I thought I had enough FE to justify it.

fold pre.

but the thing about these 4-5 way pots when people open to 5x is there is a lot of chedder out there now.

like 25bb our stack is only 95 bb, we flopped nut flush draw, backdoor straight draw. punt it in here and try to get there. i think its good that we are only 100bb because if we were like 250+ then we have to protect our stack. so i like being shortish in this spot.

As others have said, fold preflop...I don't like calling a raise with a small suited ace...I'd rather three-bet here than just call. Maybe call if it's 4-5 way and you're closing the action.

On flop, you pretty much hit your dream-flop...

So why are you checking to a preflop limper?

Also, the CO is not TAG if he's calling a 5x bb raise with 75 with a few people left to act.

Fold pre
Fold pre
Fold pre
Fold pre

You have to think about future streets my guy. If a LAG opens UTG, you don't want to be the first person to call his raise especially with suited Ax, SCs, etc flat with PPs instead.... Additionally, but more importantly, one of the biggest reasons you should not be calling in this spot pre is because you'll have the worst relative position post flop and likely will be playing a guessing game.

Preflop is horrible. Sorry but it is. 5x open and you flat with A6s? This needs to get out of your game ASAP.

There’s no implied odds here. If you call, you’re essentially all in. There’s no card nor bet to be made on the turn that you won’t call. And generally speaking, calling it off on a bare NFD isn’t going to be making you the money at 6 SPR preflop.

But back to preflop. What are you calling this raise for? What are you hoping to accomplish?


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Yup you beat me to it.

Honestly, flat calling a LAG open is like the nut worst way to adjust to them. I’ve seen so many LAGs print money because the standard TAGfish and bad reg adjustment to these guys is often to flat wider and try to hit a flop. Then they don’t hit a flop and LAG barrels them off the winner.

If you want to combat a guy playing too many hands, three bet them.


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Also, what’s going on with the UTG who C/R the flop to $265 and then folds for $211 into a $1000+ pot?!?

This is beginning to sound like my home game!

It's funny how everyone is jumping on the bandwagon of "pre-flop is so bad" but if UTG has a wide opening range as a LAG and the players behind the H have small 3bet frequencies it's really not bad

this is also the type of hand that could be taken for a 3bet pre if the UTG is very loose and there is some FE along with some dead money in between , you have some removal and a suited A so against a very loose player i don't mind 3betting this at all

I don't think Folding is bad at all if you think you might get squeezed from behind and the UTG player is opening a reasonable range, you will not have much FE pre so 3betting isn't that attractive if this is the case

Like if we are the button and it’s folded to us I can get behind a flat or three bet. But since we are so far out it’s way to loose a call and way too aggressive to three bet.

A6 just not a great hand if someone calls behind us with a9 we are dominated. We aren’t going to flush over flush someone, that often.

Also we are giving the players behind us better odds to calls and our incentivizing people to three bet. A lot of hands there going to be 4,5 people in the pot and some of them have position us. I don’t think we are stealing a lot of pots post flop.

Also the only way you get to win vs a LAG by calling is if you make something. Unless you intend to engage in a spewing war postflop.

Generally it’s a bad idea to make your range susceptible to be barreled against while facing an opponent who likes to barrel


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If LAG has a wide opening range, the first adjustment is to 3b a little wider and not flat wider as someone else above mentioned.

And, is everyone on a fold pre bandwagon because one poster said it and the rest followed or might that be a census way of playing this spot in a vacuum?

Next to a 66x or A62 flop, flopping a FD is the best case scenario which we have in this case. But, look how the hand played out...

Also mentioned above but I'll reiterate, flatting A6s is kind of ok from LP if UTG opens. But, I might still fold because we're dominated majority of the time.

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You guys are acting like 3betting a LAG with a prime 3bet candidate (suited AX) isn't even an option with dead money in between which i just don't agree with, against a reasonable UTG range i wouldn't consider it , probably just burning money but it sounds like it's a fairly wide range so the option is on the table

Folding pre is def higher EV than Calling if the players behind you have a 3bet frequency , some of these games are just filled with L/P players that only 3bet JJ+/AQ+

i think 3betting is better than calling , and folding is better than calling, but the EV is probably pretty close between calling and folding if you won't get squeezed often

and yeah if you call you are trying to flop 2p+ or a FD , you will cooler people sometimes and win a huge pot, im not saying it's a slam dunk call just saying it's not that much worse than folding given a certain dynamic

What dead money in between? UTG opened and it seems like H is the first to call from MP.


I haven't done the calculations but i don't think EV of folding and calling should be close. One of the main things I pointed out in my initial reply is how bad our relativd position will get post flop. When we are the first to act after a LAG, we are going to have a difficult time realizing our equity post flop.

Yes this hand works better as a 3b than call or fold. But, you have to give villain raising UTG some credit for a hand. If he opened from MP, H is in the CO or BU, go ahead and 3b.

Consider villain and your position when wanting to make a 3b. This isn't a good spot for that.

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Grunching ...

If you were deeper you can mix-in a 3b vs. a wider UTG opening range with an ace blocker. Otherwise, ez fold at 100 bbs.

Fold to the flop raise also, sounds like you knew of that risk. I don't believe you have enough fold equity with a jam.

Players do bet draws, however you are blocking many.

i thought there was a call or two in between so in that case i don't like 3betting as much , and yea in general I'm not looking to do this vs an UTG range the guy would have to be very loose and there would have to be a call or 2 in between, LAG is a very general term so this is up to the poster to determine how wide he truly is , some guys are just maniacs and if we can drive out the players behind us and isolate a weak range it's worth considering

I have no problem with folding here tho ,

i think the real consideration when thinking about calling is the squeeze frequency behind you, if you could take this mult-way it won't be that hard to play post flop bc you simply get out of the way if you don't make a 2P+ hand or a FD where you can get good odds to call, it's much worse to call in the SB or BB where you will have a much tougher time realizing your equity , at least you have position on the pre flop raiser

i don't disagree with anything you said, i just don't think it's as terrible as your making it out to be in a L/P game

i was doing the numbers its pretty close if we are getting a good price to jam.

like pots 205, guy bet 265 but for convivence sake lets pretend he jammed all in and we have no fold equity. so we got to call 475 to win a pot that 1155. so we need to be over 41 percent to win. and we are probally around 43 percent vs utg range. if co callls we need to be around 30 percent vs both of them to profit and we are around 32 percent.

https://imgur.com/dbRhVKE

We could 3 bet, but against oversized opens, the exploit is simply to tighten up and have it more often in your 3 bets. It’s really profitable to have a guy opening 5x with a wide range when you’ve position on him. Just 3 bet him with hands that are ahead of that range.

Calling an open of this size, especially without callers in front, is rarely a good option


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We only have 100 big blinds, and even regular lags open tighter from UTG. Also most lags don't fold to 3bets, so we're most often gonna be otf with ace high, little equity, and an awkward continuing stack size (if we raise to 85 there's 170 in the middle and we have 415 left. are we check/folding? If that were the case I wouldn't have 3bet to begin with. so a cbet pretty much commits us, and based on his description of being "a bit of a lag", it only makes his range even stronger).

And yea I would love to take the hand multiway all day, if I knew everyone else was gonna call and not raise I would call in a heart beat.

So what you are saying is we called pre risking getting squeezed and folding $25 away, to get one of our best flops and find we are still only around 0 ev?

Hmm... what could we do about that I wonder. Fold pre!

fold pre

I think OP would be served well if he comes back and discusses why he treats this hand as a call preflop. Maybe post other preflop scenarios.


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