Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line?

04-27-2023 , 12:15 PM
Hero (1200): Hyper aggressive image in this room and against villain
Villain (1800): Is a guy that learned to play poker 6 months ago and is playing 3 times a week in this room . Makes some crazy levelling moves some times. Still very erratic sometimes, but is getting better.

OTH
Blinds 5-10

Hero is MP and raises to 40 with KsTc, villain calls on HJ, rest of table folds

Flop (95): Qs9c7h
Hero c bets 60, villain calls.

Maybe c betting against this villain with my LAG image is not the best decision, but I want to mantain my aggressive image from time to time with him even though my hands are almost always value based against him

Turn (215): 6d
We have a double gutter I decided to check, villain bets 105, hero decides to call.

The funny thing is that I pass this hand through the solver and it says that we should directly overbet turn 70% of the time, and in case I decide to check hero should check raise him 93% of the time in this board. I sincerely would go for the check raise against most players in this spot, but I think Villain has more tendency to call me and we will not get the bluff through enough times to make it profitable so I decide to go with the passive line here. Thoughts welcome

River (425): Js
Bingo! We have the nuts. Go for the check raise or directly bet into villain?
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-27-2023 , 12:52 PM
Pre: Would rather raise with suited version.

Flop: Ok

Turn: An amazing card for us outside of hitting the gutshot or K. I think c/r is good for TAG image. Prefer turn barrel with a hyper aggressive image. We already bet 66% on the flop. Have to bet big again to shed any pair. At least pot. C/c is fine once in a while if we know V is super sticky. AP, V's 50% bet looks like a pair for value and/or protection.

River: The board is quite connected now and a single pair will likely check back. Good thing we have a hyper aggressive image. I would lead here and target the single pair. If he makes leveling moves sometimes like you said, I'm tempted to block bet to induce, like 15-20%. Our hand looks a lot like a weak Q or JT or 9T. If V happens to have JT or 9T he may want to bluff raise. If we bet too big he may not get the chance to bluff and might even hero fold a single pair.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-27-2023 , 12:55 PM
I'd probably bet the turn. As played, bet the river. I'd go ~$200. Would be criminal for it to check through.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-27-2023 , 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diezeljj
Pre: Would rather raise with suited version.

Flop: Ok

Turn: An amazing card for us outside of hitting the gutshot or K. I think c/r is good for TAG image. Prefer turn barrel with a hyper aggressive image. We already bet 66% on the flop. Have to bet big again to shed any pair. At least pot. C/c is fine once in a while if we know V is super sticky. AP, V's 50% bet looks like a pair for value and/or protection.

River: The board is quite connected now and a single pair will likely check back. Good thing we have a hyper aggressive image. I would lead here and target the single pair. If he makes leveling moves sometimes like you said, I'm tempted to block bet to induce, like 15-20%. Our hand looks a lot like a weak Q or JT or 9T. If V happens to have JT or 9T he may want to bluff raise. If we bet too big he may not get the chance to bluff and might even hero fold a single pair.
Yes checking back is suicidal with this board. I think a block bet would work betting 100-150, to target some 2 pair or let him bluff raise... I think an overbet would be too suspicious: betting 400-500 in a pot where the last bet was 105 is screaming a lot of strength even though I have a bluffy image and he might find a fold with his 1 pair hand that are definitely calling a bet of 1/2 pot
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-27-2023 , 06:19 PM
A few days ago I gave you advice how you should adjust with your image. It started with 'fold marginal hands pre'. That way you get into less situations where you need to bluff. Then I said start by checking your potential 3 barrell hands, because that way you won't have to bluff for stacks/give up obvious bluff combos to burn overaggressive image.

You said you liked what I said now you post this hand lol. The exact opposite of what I advise. KTo is very marginal (idk what MP is but I suspect 2-4 seats right to Btn). even for 2.5x sizing, for 4x it's just too weak in theory. Now I get that you have an edge etc., but it doesn't necessarily mean to open loose. If you play a stationy table the correct adjustment is to open tighter even if you are better than them. The good hands will gain EV because of getting stationed, the worse ones will lose EV because you can't bluff them profitably. So you are better off not opening them even vs fish. Ofc there are the beluga whales that punt so big that any hand is good enough vs them, but it's a rare case and usually adjustments have to be more nuanced than 'just open okish stuff because they suck'. Folding pre won't even burn your image, as I've already said because they won't know if you mucked KTo or 62o.

Flop cbet is not that bad, without the aggro meta I'd mostly cbet too, but I can only repeat myself again. You want to maintain image, but you want it so much that you probably end up bluffing for stacks vs a fishy guy relatively new to the game, based on your description a 'feel player', who might hero you if he thinks you're fos (he probably does). I'd never ever bluff this guy in your shoes, it must be burning money. The good adjustment is to start with a check. You might bluff later, you can call one bet easily so you still have options, but you avoid the line where you likely put in stacks with K hi and he thinks you're pushing him around.

I also like to check to weaker players in general OOP, because they usually telegraph their hand way more that way. If you cbet they just call a ton and maybe 3x raise some nutted hands and huge draws, but that's not much info in most cases and you've already put in money before you gaining it. This guy played less than 10k hands lifetime, so he is a complete noob, probably gives off some sizing tell every single time he grabs chips. You would have a much more accurate estimation of his range by the turn in the x/c or x/r line than you have when it goes 66% and call.

Then I just don't understand your turn x/c with the nutted bluff hand, but at least you can't end up shoving river unimproved. X is ok and I guess calling is better than folding but what are you doing on a brick? Check down and show KT? It is torching your image and also very bad in theory.

AP I kind of like donkshoving river, it should make zero sense so I'd expect this guy to hero you relatively often with even Qx (description is not very detailed so I might be off). Impossible to put you on a good hand after your line, so I'd just go for it. Xrai also ok, but he might xb KQ/KT, he has 0 unpaired bluffs, people rarely find the paired ones and xrai looks less fos than just donkshoving.

Last edited by crackedaa; 04-27-2023 at 06:39 PM.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-27-2023 , 10:50 PM
Without the solver explanation I actually thought barrelling the 6 was a good idea. For about 150-170 I thought. Happy the computer agrees with me. AP I think open-cbet-x/call-bet is such an awkward line. I would x/raise river. V has a lot of 2pair combos and even some sets we can get value from.

Edit. I would also fold pre, KTo isn't in my MP cold-opening range, I need LJ at least.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-27-2023 , 11:42 PM
As played, I think donking river for about 35% pot /$145 is a good play. If he has two pair I think you will likely get raised. This punishes him for giving you decent odds to call turn, considering your K and maybe even your T could be live, and you have a chance to win a very large pot when you hit the nuts. However, if he tends to barrel off when checked to, I would give him rope and go for the check raise.

I like overbetting turn. You should also overbet turn with all your sets, T8.

Overbets are such a strong play that is insanely useful to learn. Sticky players often aren't so sticky anymore. If they are still sticky when you overbet, then you learn not to bluff them as much and hammer them with value. If they do something dumb like raise you huge when you represent a really polarized range, you have an easy fold.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-28-2023 , 12:09 AM
We are very aggressive against a station. Bet 500, he will probably hero you with KQ and could have much better.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-28-2023 , 05:17 AM
So, obviously we shouldn't have KTo here. But is what it is.

Structuring a calling range for the particular villain is gonna be tough. HJ calling ranges *should* be very narrow. But we know it's likely not.


I'd be curious to see what your solver inputs were that want to overbet at a high frequency on this turn. This isn't a normal overbet spot. It's also a low frequency C/R spot as well. Both lines happen around a 15% or less frequency in these spots.


Except overpairs......we do not have a big range/nut advantage and we are OOP.
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote
04-28-2023 , 06:04 AM
Preflop is marginal, but anyway.

AP, I like the cbet otf.

Turn, looks like an almost mandatory 2nd barrell to me, check to c/r once in a while. Really don't like c/c.

River, here is one reason why I do not like c/c turn.
We have to lead now, but it looks somewhat weird.
If we had bet turn and got called, we could bet agan river on most of non paired boards, imo.

By the way, what is your plan on a blank river?
Double gutshot on the turn against loose player. Aggressive or passive line? Quote

      
m