1/2 NL - Looking for comments on the turn/river play by me.

V1 UTG+1 [`$450] Typical weekend player. Nothing great/terrible in his play.
V2 Button [$200] Claims he's waiting to play 2/2 PLO but I doubt it by the way poor way he pays Hold Em.
Me - CO [$275]

So it was straddled to $5 & there were 4 callers, so I called with KJ V2 calls, blinds fold & straddler checks.

Flop [$31.00 after rake/bb] QT6

V1 bets $25 1 caller b4 me, I call, V2 calls - 4 way to turn.

Turn $130 -QT6 [T]

Now I have str8 & flush draw but board is paired & V1 bets $50. Folded to me, I just call. V2 calls.

So I'm thinking what does V2 have/drawing to? V1 I put on a T. It appeared V2 wanted to call the $50, so I flatted. What the heck, I may have what looks like 15 outs, but V1 may have a boat, or boat up when I catch my flush/str8.

River $280 - QT6T [8]

V1 just bets $50 as he did on the turn, when there is $280 in the pot.

Now I remember reading where someone said [in a previous post] if V bets the same amount on a street that he bet on the previous street, he is raising. However, I am thinking:
He may be concerned about the flush/str8, or, he may be inducing the flush to believe he has the best hand since he only bet $50 again. PLUS V2 is obviously in position to call with his hand over some reds.

So, I have to ask myself: How much more will either one of them call with just trip Ts? Does V2 have nut flush? Not likely.

Is it worth it, to raise say $75 on top and hope trip Ts calls? Or just min-raise? Do I need the aggravation? I think it's obvious V2 is at least calling the $50, so that's $100 in the bank IF I have the best hand.

What should I do? Should I have raised the turn with my 15 outs?
Should I be raising the river now? If so, by how much?
Thanks

the main point to address is you putting him on a 10 on the turn. is he leading into 4 or 5 players on the flop with middle pair? if so is he betting super small on the turn with disguised trips? do you have a read that he bets small with monsters? to me it seems like the biggest problem is your hand reading and thought process, because it looks like you're putting him on a strong hand/one that beats yours with no real reason for doing it.

you need a complete soul read to not raise this river. his betting looks a lot more like a Q than a boat or even a 10. a typical weekend player would prob bet more on the turn with trips. biggest mistake at the small stakes is not getting max value. don't make that mistake.

raising turn is a bit more dicey. he might be able to fold his 2pair type hands but more likely he finds the call button and you get it in way behind (ie you don't have enough fold equity to ship turn).

With V2 to still act behind...I'm just calling the $50. Don't see either player calling a raise with anything worse than your holdings. At least by calling, you pick up an extra $50 from player behind. Don't like raising on turn though with a paired board unless you're seeing weakness/timidness from players.

I agree with both previous posters. You said you can't put v2 on a hand but think he'll call so flat to keep him in and maybe get more out of him otr if you hit. I think you give v1 too much credit for a ten here too. Would he really donk out on the flop with a ten being OOP with multiple players behind? And his river bet seems more like a blocking bet. He didn't like the diamond because your play and v2's play looks like drawing hands but he needs to bet so it doesn't look like he's scared on the river. If v1 checks it's obvious he doesn't have a flush which opens him up to bluffs otr. I like your play up to the river but you def have to raise the river. There's $330 in the pot when river action gets to you. After you call the $50 on the river you'd have like $145 left so I'd ship it man. Your making it $195 for $380 to v2 and $145 for $380 to v1. Can v1 get away from trips for just over a 1/3 pot raise to call? Doubtful.

Highly doubt V1 has trips given bet sizing on flop and turn....a raise on river is only getting called by a better hand IMO. More value by flatting the river bet and allowing V2 to come along.

Just shove the river. There are a ton of hands for them to call with.

More importantly though, raise preflop and on the flop.

Idk maybe you play with nits but very few of the 1/2 people I play with will lay down trips here. Plus j9 could easily be v2's hand and he will find a call here a lot too. I think flatting in hopes v2 calls leaves money on the table a lot here. I see your point but I think there are plenty of hands we beat that call. V2 was likey chasing a str8 or flush in this spot a lot. Both got there so maximize that value.

Villains in my 1.2 game will call your river shove with kq or aq sometimes. 100 percent with trips.

Most of the players in my local games will check/call Tx on this board. Heck, a lot of them will check behind on the river with Tx. They will bet hands they intend to fold to a raise. They will bet hands that are not afraid of the backdoor flush. They will check most hands in-between. It makes some sense to just call in that game.

I've played in other places where this is an easy shove OTR. As always, it depends.

If you raise otf, you likely get checked to ott and can see the river for free.

River is a r/f. You get value from plenty of worse hands and nothing worse is going to reraise you.

So many things to say...

-Please raise preflop. There's already $28 in dead money sitting out there. No one has shown any real initiative in the hand. Unless there are particularly tricky villains at your table, KJs is a must-raise from the cutoff. Make it $25-30, narrow the field down to 1 or 2 players, then c-bet as needed. Pure profit.

-Flop call is fine. I could see an argument for raising here as well.

-There's just no reason to give V1 credit for a 10 on the turn. Everyday recs aren't leading into a large field with middle pair on the flop. It's a good semibluff card. Raising here should scare out most queens, and if V1 or V2 jams, you can comfortably give them credit for a boat and fold. That said, your stack is a little short for this play -- he bet $50, so you'd want to raise to at least $150, and that leaves you with only ~$100 behind). So I'm fine with just calling here.

-On the river, V1 either has a boat and is trying to induce or he has a weak made hand and is planning to bet/fold. We don't know much about V2's range, but I'd be surprised if he called a jam with most of it. Given those dynamics, I call here and hope for the overcall. There aren't many flushes in V2's range. Straights are going to be spooked by the flush and the paired board as well.

Thanks for all your input.

Does anyone else agree with bobman0330 & sierradave's recommendation to raise PF? I see the merit in it where I play: There's bound to be at least one with a weak Axs that may fold PF + the dead money.

It's not so much that I put him on the T as I wondered what V2 had called flop with.

I didn't put V1 on a T until he bet $50 on the turn into a $130 pot. I took that to be a value bet, not giving credit to one of us have a backdoor draw, nor much credit to a str8 draw. I figured he put 1 of us on a Q [maybe both] and/or a str8 draw.

To bet $50 into $130 on the turn, he doesn't seem scared, unless all he has is a Q & trying to find out where he's at.

Like me, you don't see anyone calling a raise on the river with a worse hand. I usually don't get a call. Maybe 50/50 against players who don't have much of any history with me. You see, I come across as "Ol' Man Coffee" [OMC] being 60, luvin' my Starbucks & playing tight & trying to get more aggressive.

However, I am not the OMC that if he 3-bets PF, he has AA/KK & nothing else.. I can semi-bluff.

It's just that in this hand, I decided to see what the flop brings me + the straddler raises about 20-25% of the time. Should have known the field was too big for him to try it this time.

I think on the river, i feared being raised by V2/V1 if I raised V1.
Suffered from shrinkage....again.....maybe

I understand where you are coming from. However, do you know how embarrassing it is when a 60yr old ships $145 on top, gets called, shows down a flush & a 25 yr old "Top Gun" cocky player says: "You went all-in with a flush? I thought for sure I was going to be taught a lesson by one of my elders & you'd show me a bigger boat."

1. = You're saying if V1 has a T & I raise otf, he'll risk not getting any $ in on the turn [if I ck behind] & go after a c/r. If he donks into me on the turn after I raise, it also gives away the fact that he has a T unless he's bluffing. Which I wouldn't think is likely.

I also have that str8 draw on the flop that doesn't make much money if an offsuit 9 comes on the turn

2. = So, you're not recommending going all-in here. Maybe a min-raise or $75?

Agreed - weak/tight play on my part PF.

But I'd be doing this with nothing but 15 outs max -30% equity, unless 1 has AT, then I down to 11 outs. Is the FE value really that high that we can risk not seeing the river?

Is AT/KT/JT/T9 folding to this play? If not, I'm out $100 when I don't hit on the river.

Agreed. Thanks for the input. Bobman0330 is also in your camp I believe.

Postscript: I can grow a set at times. Tonight I watched a guy for 3+ hrs as his $800 stack dwindled down to $350. Finally I get my chance when he bet $30 into a flop of 864

When the turn brought the J & he only bet $40 into what was about a $110 pot [it was multiway PF, but only 1 other caller on the flop who was between us & folded b4 it got to me] I raised to $125 with AK. Took him about 15 seconds to fold.

My decision was based on his dejected attitude from spewing & primarily his bet sizing that I'd been watching.

Naked Tx seems somewhat unlikely for either villain. Obv possible.

We block most of the likely possible flush combos.

So any raise here has to be targeting what? KQ or QJ?

If v2 has worse is he calling a raise on this river? Idk but I tend to think just flatting and getting his overcall is best.

Fwiw v1 "same bet" is weakness IMO.

I am skeptical that this will achieve the number of folds you want it to.

AT/KT/JT/T9 aren't folding to this play, no. But it's a useful semibluff card because V1 is unlikely to have bet into the field on the flop with just middle pair. If we raise this turn, it's in the hopes of forcing AQ/KQ/QJ to fold.

Depends on the table dynamics and our image. This is a bread-and-butter play for me in standard $1/2 games, though. No one has shown aggression, several players will be uncomfortable risking so much of their stack preflop, and the 1-2 who do will mostly play fit-or-fold on the flop.

The main issue is that if someone calls right away, it can turn into a 7-way megapot. But if it does, then I just play straightforward for value. KJs plays pretty well multiway.

Turn is a raise vs a lot of villains. He almost always has a Q there based on the sizing. U have a ton of equity and if u put on big pressure he will b hard pressed to call. This has the added benefit of folding out a potential nfd behind u which helps u out a ton. However if villain will get sticky with a med strength Q then your better of just calling and seeing a river.

On the river, you are losing a ton of value by not raising. Sizing is villain dependent. The block bet generally means that he really doesnt want to fold. Id make it 150 and expect him to call with Kq or Aq.

The mindset of "the pot is big enough" is dangerous. Is the pot big enough for you to retire and never play poker again? If not, then it isn't big enough. It can never be big enough if you are trying to make as much money as possible.

I wouldn't be targeting Tx otf. OTF you don't know the T will pair ott. OTF, if you raise, Qx will call and then c/c ott, but you can just check behind. So take the free card if you want. Or bet if you improve. Why doesn't a 9 get you paid ott? The Ace is the worse card unless V has AQ. QT6-9 isn't a scary board for KQ/QJ/etc.

I thought you covered V not other way around, I'd shove as played otr.