I would also make a note that V in this hand played his hand extremely well. He isn't your typical low-stakes drooler.

Don't agree with this at all. A lot of V's will bet out TPNK to "test the waters" and fold to a raise. Other Vs will bet FDs to set a price and look like draws, but then fold to decently sized raises. Agree that they're not often 3-betting, but I think we lose a lot of hands that would bet turn with a flop raise, and even if they call once, they'll often fold turn.

It doesn't have to be a big raise - we can click it back to 50-60 where worse TP and draws will want to continue.

It's not a flop that's hitting a ton of ranges hard but you will get action from pair and draw type hands.

If V isn't calling a 2bet on the flop, why are they betting/calling a bet when a turn card hits that does not improve their hand?


+1

Because they suck. They see a raise as much stronger than anything else. When you don't raise, they feel safe, so they usually bet for value, and if they don't and check turn, they call because "maybe he just bet because I checked."

not sure if this is directed at me. but yes i would raise tiny on flop, even click it back. this play has saved me lots of money and therr have been many times i shouldve min raise folded instead of flat.

i wouldnt do it against a competent player obv. and how many villains fold top pair to a tiny min raise at llsnl even if they think theyre beat? very very few

if theyre really folding that often then min raise bluff air and blast turn next time.

Awesome, so many great thoughts. I agree with below:

Normally wouldn't our standard $1-$2 player let us hang ourself here with what we have? Results would be the same there. So agreed, V played well - once that Ace made his hand, as I thought it did mine, it was all over.

Personally, I'm not a fan of raising the flop, unless V bet out like $15. V bet what I was planning on betting, so I felt there's no need to let V off the hook, alerting him that we have a big Ace. If he wants to fire away with worse, great. I don't want to end the hand with a raise since the potential draws are so scarce. I pretty much put him on an Ace until the stiff turn bet.

Couldn't disagree more, I'm putting it in my mental notes villain is a moron who plays with hand face up. It just so happened we had a cooler, but villain played horribly. Let's break it down.

Villain flops incredibly well concealed monster on a board when not the preflop raiser where there is an Ace (villain has no blockers to ace). Villain then DONKS OUT 25. Absurdly bad play. What if we just had KQ or JJ? What if we had a weak ace, like A8 suited? Villain denies us a chance to cbet, thus denying himself a check/raise.

Hero could have Cbet a 99, another player with an A may have called and villain would have had an ever better c/r on the flop.

Villain played like trash but the only way not to double up was to open shove the flop.

Seriously, I would make a note on V, doesn't bother to c/r just donk bets strong hands on flop, typical 1/2 passive garbage that can't wait to put money in when they hit something.

Ok, notes on V donking 3 ways without initiative.

Does anyone read into the stiff turn bet? Again, is it more likely we're cooling V with our kicker (case Ace), or is it reasonable to have the though of we'e up against a flopped set?

Thanks very much to all responders.

I wasn't arguing for "raising for information" although it may have come off that way. Simply suggesting an alternative line that allows us to keep the lead.

Not to oversimplify 1-2/1-3 Vs into a simple binary but a competent V is never donking with a weak A in this spot, and an incompetent V is never folding top pair to a clickback.

If a good V has a set and gets clicked back, does he flat against the possibility of a pair plus flush draw type hand? I don't think so.

OP, this is a really easy fold, if you want to be one of the few who is willing to look past their own cards and the board.

If the Villain calls raises with a wide range of hands and then donks out whenever he hits the flop, that fishy behavior is very noticeable. You're way ahead of that person's range. If he happens to hit a set, and you pay him off, then that is a cooler.

On the other hand someone is tight, is calling with a range that is very pocket-pair heavy. He'll be hitting a set rarely, so he'll be donking out only very occasionally. You're crushed by that person's range.

One thing to learn from this thread is don't slow-play your flopped sets. Fish will pay you off.

Almost every thread where Hero has more than one pair, someone justifies stacking off because the Villain could be spazzing. I guess their "logic" is that people tend to spazz in hands where you have more than one pair.

I think this turn needs to be shipped or folded. His range is basically full house, nut club draws and AQ/AJo maybe. 6 losing combos, 9 winners. He shouldn't fold his flush draws, so we should shove for value. Obviously it's very significant that the case ace is a club. If we have the Ac, we can think about folding.

I think it's probably correct to check the NFD here, but I don't expect most villains to do that.

cooler is when your hand played out itself in best possible way eg. you have 10bb with AK and you gii preflop
At the same time villain had eg AQ and he called your all in and spiked a Q OTF and rest bricked out for you.
This situation was out of control and both players played a +eV spot.

In your example villains range tightens towards nuts per street (pre,flop,turn,river), for every bet he bets/calls/raises, so it becomes less of a cooler and more of a bad play imo.

Thanks for your response. How would you have interpreted the bets, and how would you have played this hand? Thanks.

his flop bet is often two pairs+ and just top pair betting to see where hes at. occasionally a big draw. since he could have Axcc alot id flat flop as we dont wanna fold best hand. on turn he either has boat or trips. looks more like trips scared of FD since boats often check or bet small. on river ur ahead alot and have to call.

this hand is a cooler you should never fold this deep on this runout. maybe if turn was blank i might fold

Turn was the deciding factor. Instinct told me TPTK was beat, yet I couldn't fold. I figured a worse Ace was betting. Which is why I wonder, mathematically, what the odds are of the case Ace here.

Thanks again for all responses.

you have trips on turn...not tptk. assuming he has a bunch of Ax and boats, % wise he is much more likely to have trips than a boat

(just some thoughts)
what i find strange ITT is that people tell one guy to fold QQ to double donk OTT on T high boards, and tell another guy to call down with trips. When in both examples the trips and QQ-AA are face up post flop.

It depends on their donking range. If you've though from other hands they are a TAG/solid their donk cbet range is going to beat top trips like all the time.

Aces full can nearly be discounted 100% on the turn, do you understand why OP?

What part of the country is it? If it's not LA you can just fold otf. But if the flop isn't a fold then that's the decision, not ott. If you think he has a draw, raise, if you think he has a worse Ax, raise. If he has you beat, you at best have 3 outs ott to come from behind but those 3 outs are RIO often. But if you happen to get to the turn same thing, if you think you're behind, fold, if you think you're ahead, shove. You need to make a decision. "I think I'm ahead so I won't get more money in" is nuts.

If we are folding TPTK to a 60% of pot donk bet on the flop, V can print money by donking ATC. What range are you suggesting we continuing with?

I think the take away here is that turning top trips should not be considered an extremely strong hand because nothing really changes from the flop. If TPTK was ahead on the flop, then we are still ahead. If TPTK was behind on the flop, the only hand we are now ahead of is bottom 2 pair.

The big decision needs to happen on the turn, IMO. We need to ask ourselves two questions:

- What part of V's double-barrel donking range is made up of weak aces?
- What part of V's double-barrel donking range is made up of draws?

I wouldn't fold face up. He can only print money if he knows you're doing it, which he doesn't. And he needs to be capable of calling raises pre for the purpose of donking air to get you to fold, which he isn't.

Against a more than half-PSB, top 2 and better.

This wasn't always the case but see what the guy shows down every time you see a more than half-PSB donk after limp/calling pre. It'll be a range that rapes TPTK.

I think folding TPTK to just a single reasonably sized bet on a relatively safe flop is a little too nitty, at least without specific history or reads. It's much easier case if, say, the flop is JT9 monotone.