1/2 game is playing slow compared to what I usually see here. PFRs are in the $6-$8 range (and the entire tables doesn't call) not the $10-$15 range.

V - UTG $120 early 30's bought in for $150 been at the table for ~20 hands and only played a few of them so no real read

Hero - MP $240 early 50's has only played 2 hands in the last 20.

Hero dealt JJ
V(UTG) raises to $7 folds to hero. Hero raises to $20. Folds to V who calls.


Flop($39 after rake) T96r
V-check, hero bets $30, V snap shoves for $100

Hero??????

Comments on Call/Fold, 3bet/Cbet sizing, and V's range appreciated.

I like flat pre, as played call off.

What level do you think V is thinking on? Very little info on V. I don't really like calling here at all. V's will almost never c/r w/ air at 1/2. But with the SPR and the way the hand has played out I think we have to call.

You can bet flop less. It's less likely he's got a draw here, both because they re less players and because his pf calling range should have narrowed to an extent.

You have two options -- call or fold and it's the final decision for the hand.

What are you confused about?

you have an overpair, getting pretty good pot odds against a non-descript 1/2 player who bought in short.

Snap call.

Call.

His line is consisent with AT, QJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, T9 and I'm pretty sure we are getting the right price against that range. Likely 2-3 combos of other hands that we beat also.

I'd be pretty surprised to see him show up with KK+. QQ maybe 40% of the time, so 2 combos of that if you want to include it.

3bet sizing looks fine, cBet should be closer to $25 range.

The confusion comes more from the stack sizes and the typical 1/2 player not bluff shoving into a 3 bet pot.

We are getting 2.41:1 pot odds and need 30% to make the call. If we give V a range of 99+,66,ATs,QJs,T9s we are 22%. If we give V a range of TT-66,ATs,QJs,T9s,ATo,QJo,T9o we are 54%.

The first range may be too tight for a 1/2 player flatting a 3 bet OOP and the second range may be too wide because it is a 3 bet pot and he is OOP.

If we remove some of the Tx hands from the second range or add some more Tx hands to the first range we get closer to it being a break even and do we want to stack off 50% of our stack here or just wait for a better spot.

Since we don't have a very good read on V would you lean more to the upper range since 1/2 players wouldn't typically bluff shove or would you give him credit for realizing that this is a shove/fold with his stack and any piece of this board.

If the 3bet/Cbet were a little bigger then I think it is a snap call if they were a little smaller I could possibly find a fold. The more I thought about the hand away from the table the more I came up with it could fall on either side and decide to see what 2+2 had to say about it. Looks like there isn't much hope for the fold so maybe I'm over thinking it.

You don't want to think about it as 'half your stack'.
You want to think about it in terms of raw $'s.

Either it makes sense to call based on your expectation, or it doesn't.
We can call 5% of our stack, or 95% of our stack at any time.
That's the beauty of a cash game. We can always top back off.

If we decide that it's +EV to call, then we need to call. If we decide that it's break even, then we don't care if we call or not. (But you might want to fold if it's exactly break even as your BR might not be able to handle it, we can't know that.)
If we decide that it's -EV then we fold.

The only time that we would consider folding a spot that is very close because of the size of our stack is a situation in which we are very deep, say 300bb deep, and we are wagering 150bb in a spot that is likely very neutral EV. Say +/- 3-4BB, and we can't really determine where we lie.

But also, it needs to be such that there is someone else at the table with a big stack that we want to try and be able to get into a hand with that also has a 300bb stack. If everyone at the table has 100bb or less, and all of a sudden we make a 50/50 call and we drop down to 25BB, it doesn't really matter, we can just top off to 100bb again and try again.

But when that whale has 300BB and we can't top off past 100bb, then taking a coin flip for 100-200bb could be the wrong situation as we put our self at a disadvantage to taking an entire stack from the whale.

Those situations are pretty rare though.

If you are ever at a table this freaking tight where they won't call $10 to $15 raises try the following experiment.

Raise $15 with a range of 98s+, 97s+, 88+, all broadways... from all positions!!!!

become a raising machine, raise so much that the entire table gets mad at you every time you raise.

What you will discover is that by the 10th raise, villains will start calling and then you can tighten your range back up. During this raising rampage you will win an easy uncontested 10 blinds. Also, what happens on occasion is that when you are called, the caller will usually have AQ+, JJ+ and if you can flop/turn gin and stack him the table will tremble in fear everytime you raise. This makes for an interesting dynamic as far as your image goes and ability to just dominate the table...

But I digress...


So I wanted to discuss the above in the context of your hand. I know I was not there but I have to say that I just kinda really don't believe you. I don't say that to be mean or anything, its just my experience that when players say this sort of stuff, it just isn't true or they aren't paying enough attention to hands they aren't involved in.

But, for the sake of argument, if the above is true, then what range of hands are going to call a 3-bet?

According to the above, if the above is true and players are snap folding everything in the $10 - $15 range, then what hands call a 3-bet to $20?

AKs, QQ+ right?

So 3-betting JJ is actually incorrect if the above is true and if the above is true then you actually should only set mine JJ when someone raises

How ridiculous does that sound???

which is why I said in my initial comment above that you are probably mistaken in regards to what the table dynamics truly are.

In any event, based on your observations, if what you say about the table is true, then you are incorrect to 3-bet JJ and you should set mine with them only and as played this is a snap fold AINEC.

Basically, you can't have it both ways. If the table is really as you say then the consequences are that JJ has about the same strength as 44 here. Either you are bluff catching AK or are crushed by QQ+ and odds are against a table as tight as you are claiming ever bluffing here with AK...

is this a joke? youre committed buddy

get it in

if it was for 300+ it would be a decision, but for 50bbs its a snap

nh

Personally, I don't like the snap call.
Here's why:
What hands beat you here? T6, T9, 78, TT, 99, and 66.
But wait.
V was UTG and opened for $7.
What hands would a tight, UTG player open for?
TT+, AK, AQ?
THEN, what hands would a tight, UTG call a 3-bet for?
QQ+, AKs
right?
So it seems reasonable that V is not playing AT, KT, T9, 78, T6 or 96 UTG.
(unless it's his "favorite" hand.)

So... he calls your $20 3-bet.
What range is he putting YOU on?
TT+, AK, AQs, AJs (maybe?)
Which means, he's gotta respect your raise and c-bet. Right?

Yet he shoves!
Sure it's only $70 more... but a c/r is a monster move in 1/2.
PLUS, it's such a small amount - you know he's got to think that you're calling.

Odds are: he's showing up with QQ+.
You need help to win this hand.
I'd prefer saving my chips.
I'd fold.

Spot on DGI, MAKE your own dynamic for the table that you are comfortable playing with, or adjust accordingly to the set dynamic at the table currently.

With the set dynamic at the table currently exactly what range is he flatting a 3bet to and exactly what range is he c/shoving with and how does that range fare with your hand, since you are doing the later and playing the dynamic, I'm folding and feeling great about it.

I would feel much more comfortable with QQ here but with a SPR of 2.5 I think it can go either way here. This is where it would help to have some sort of read on the V. You also don't need to bet so much on the flop. A bet of $20 would have been sufficient. Villain could also be doing this with AQ/AK. 20% chance of hitting A or K + fold equity by CR would make that a profitable play, although I discount that slightly since you bet 3/4 the pot on the flop. This also depends on how the V views you. Too many variables we don't know about here to give proper advice.

ATs, AT, KTs, QTs, JTs are all in his range here.

Add in draws and it's a snap for 50 BB.

You don't have a read that this guy is good - he's a 1/2 short stacker - he can spazz.

Just to clarify - you think it's more likely for this guy to slowplay and not 4 bet pre, out of position with QQ, KK, and AA than it is for him to call and try to hit with AT, KT, QT or JT?

The only read is that he bought in short, why are you putting him in the setting a trap not ABC category?

Uhm where is everyone getting off saying that the table is so tight. I believe its a fold just on the premise that hes check raising into the preflop 3bet and thats almost never a bluff at 1/2. But he said the pfr is smaller. That does not correlate with a tighter range??? FWIW i don't believe you should be 3betting this hand. But if you're going to 3bet it here and then lead the flop you have to get it in when he shoves and you only have to be good 29% of the time.

I don't know if it's the "new" style - but I've even seen players on the button flat a $10 PFR and cold-call a 3-bet with AA - only to make a move on the flop. (Also seen guys do this with KK. And just this weekend, a girl player check/called to the river oop with QQ on a Q-high board.)

I have never seen a guy min-raise and cold-call a 3-bet UTG with AT, KT, QT or JT in a HU situation like this one (and go to showdown). I would expect this from a LAG in position - not a tight player oop.

This is based on 500-800 hours of live 1/2 play over the last 6 months.

So, yeah, I don't think a guy who's barely played any hands in the last 2 orbits is likely to make a move against a guy who's only played 2 hands in the last 2 orbits - as you suspect.

I don't think he's shoving a set - he's most likely got a pocket pair that's bigger than ours.

Most guys do this with big pocket pairs when they're sure to be heads up with the raiser and are pretty confident the OR will c-bet. There's no need to 4-bet - because it will only scare out smaller pocket pairs. You make more money by flat-calling and check/shoving on the flop.

Not all 1/2 players play like 2+2 players. So instead of expecting a 4-bet, I look at what the player is communicating with his/her checks & bets. Here, I'm pretty confident JJ is beat.