That's the action junkie in you talking. Play hands that are going to make TP, great kicker. Forget about trying to set mine, let alone playing would be junk like Axs in this situation. You've already lost money on your call even if you get a FD on the flop with an SPR of 3 unless several people are going to go all in with you.

Isn’t set mining better than playing hands that make TPGK if we’re going 5 ways to the flop? When there are lots of opponents and stacks are immediately in play, I’d rather have a hand that is either extremely strong (if we hit our set) or extremely weak (if we miss) over a hand like TPGK that will often be pretty strong but never a monster (which I’d prefer with one or two opponents).

I agree small AXs are pretty worthless with SPR 1-2. But set mining seems perfect in these situations — our hand is often worthless when we miss, but we’ll know immediately on the flop if we likely have the best hand out of all our opponents and can pile in the rest. If I flop TPGK with eg AQ or KQ I’m never really super thrilled to get it in if we’re seeing the flop 5 ways, even though it’s often probably OK if stacks are short enough.

Also, while I would argue playing lots of hands is objectively more fun (that’s why people do it), that doesn’t mean I actually do it too. Heck, in GG’s first post he even said *he* is committing slightly wider than me here.

If you call with a set-mining hand, you have IOs of 15x the price of the call (4x from the PF money and 11x effective stacks) with multiple Vs. Easily good set-mining odds, imo, and I'm pretty surprised to see venice say otherwise.

If you want to be better than the rest of the table

plug the bolded leak.

if you want action try playing 30 cards at a bingo hall you will struggle to keep up!

I totally expected people to latch on to that quote (which is why I almost omitted it). But I don’t think enjoying the fast pace of HUNL is a leak, any more than (for example) enjoying PLO is a leak. It’s a different game and it’s OK to prefer aspects of one game over another.

A leak would be if you started playing more hands in full ring NL because you’re bored, but as I said, I really don’t do that. (If GG says I need to loosen up and commit more easily, do I get a special title? Ultra nit?)

I agree, and I think this comes from playing 5-card hi-lo PLO every day online I check a LOT of rivers!

If the other players were more sophisticated, this whole scenario wouldn't/shouldn't be happening.

IO =/ Stack over bet size.

I'd be surprised if 50% of hands are all-in/call situations. If it is much more than 50%, then it is a great set mining situation. It can happen in low stack sizes like in CA, but people usually calm down with 100 BB on the line.

I mean, that's why we go over the 8x that we'd need if we got a stack every time we hit a set. 15x is a little on the small side if we are HU, though most people consider it fine, but with 4 Vs, the chances that one of them hit something worth paying us off with goes way up. Easy set-mining spot, imo.

I'm not saying this necessarily applies to your game, but you are assuming that because all your opponents play too loose preflop for 1/12 of stacks makes them complete morons when it comes to playing for the remaining 11/12 of their stacks postflop. It isn't always the case, imo.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

+1 to this. Heads up, especially against a non horrible villain 15x implied is on the smaller side for sure. But yeah, with multiple villains in the hand+ the pot gets nicely bloated so its easier to stack people when we do hit our set makes this a no brainer setmining spot.

I mean, you can't go too far with this idea, and as DC mentions earlier it really is all about what your opponents are doing. If you're playing with a bunch of OMCs where overflatting raises with AK/JJ is standard you probably should be very wary of jamming AQs/99; if the table is more loosey goosey gambooley, then you should be more fine with it.

But AK is the stone cold nuts in any $25 + 3 callers with $300 stacks situation, so I'm pretty happy to get that in almost always unless the EP raiser is very nitty.

GcluelessSuperNitnoobG

Sets will be higher EV but your TPGK hands should be profitable. In this sort of game TPGK is a hand you play with care, evaluate the board, check multiple streets and just fold if there is too much action.

Lol at even discussing about whether to jam AK with $300 stacks facing 25 open+ 3 callers. Literally the easiest jam in the world for fat value. AQ is an instajam too of course, unless the opener is nitty/OMC.

Who cares if somebody flats 1010/JJ and gets sticky when we jam? Still a nice +EV spot to flip with dead money in the pot.

Regarding flat-out setmining, I've argued it simply isn't unprofitable OOP HU against anyone other than a complete moran (regardless of stacks behind). We need to get in 3 decent sized postflop streets of betting in order to be profitable and that is going to be difficult to do against a single non-moran.

But if we're flat-out setmining in a 5way pot, we only need to get a single call of like a 3/4 PSB on the flop to more-or-less ~breakeven. And we only need one of multiple opponents to feel they have a hand worth going a couple of streets with. Plus its gravy if multiple opponents put in small money on the flop. Yeah, obviously we would rather be in position, and yeah we won't win every time we flop a set (there are always some RIO); but would surprise me if it wasn't still profitable.

So for OPs case, I think it is an ok setmining spot. As the being the first or second caller, not nearly as much (due to the times we get 3bet / don't actually go very multiway).

GcluelesssetminingnoobG

Nope. Not when SPR is low. This seems to be a huge misnomer in this forum. TPGK is very unlikely to be beat on a lot of board textures and your opponents won’t be able to counter your general GII strategy to make a profit in the situation.

And if everyone is playing the same crappy strategy and you’re the only one playing not crappy, life will be easy


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I would disagree (although I'm sure that doesn't surprise you). Give me 66 in OPs spot instead of AJo all day. I think it would even be debatable whether a stupidly flatting AKo > 66 here against a field of non-completemorans.

GcluelessNLnoobG

What’s going to realize its equity better, AJo or 66?

Standard situation, two limps, you raise to 30, you go 6 ways with $180 in the middle and $470 in stacks.

66 will be tough to commit with if you don’t flop a set or have some very specific board textures, namely middle-middle-low paired like 772 or an OESD with SDV like a 754.

Meanwhile, AJo will flop top pair around 24% of the time. AK something like 29%. Top pair is going to be good enough to stack off with in this situation for the most part, meaning you’ll be better able to exploit your opponents preflop mistakes because you’ll be able to do it more often.

This isn’t to say AJ on the J high board has the same value when you get all in as when you hit a set of 6’s, but really, our aim when we play these massive multi-way pots is to get all in comfortably as often as possible. That’s how we convert our preflop range advantage to actual $; by realizing all of our equity


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In the 66 case, for the reasonably low cost of putting in 6% of my stack preflop, I can then just setmine. If I hit, I quickly work towards getting in the remaining 94% of my stack usually always as a monster favourite. If I miss, I check/fold and lose nothing. Yeah, I'm check/folding 8x as often as I'm continuing, but overall I'm crushing in the game of IO vs RIO.

With TP I'll certainly flop my committed TP hand for more often than my set. But when I get the remaining 94% of my stack in I won't be good remotely as often as when I had my set. Now if I'm playing in Java's game where people are stacking off with bottom pair against my TP in an eleventeen way raised pot, I won't care as much about that. But if I'm playing against opponents who are slightly more sophisticated and realize they didn't call preflop with QTs to stack off with TP (even with a low SPR), then I'm not going to do as well. In your example, 5 opponents got 22+ IO to see a flop against my TP; if they're not completely horrendous, that ain't too bad when I'm forced to stack off when I hit one pear.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I don’t find your answer entirely satisfying because. There are obviously some times you have the best hand post flop when you don’t have a set where you have to make some decisions. Like 833 and you think whoever bet the flop is out of line or it checks to you how much do you bet. Like a lot of flops actually we have decisions with pocket 6s so. Sure we need to fold some of these spots. Because villains can flop trips or have higher over pairs. But occasionally we need to not fold.

In the scenario of putting in nearly 10% of our stack into a 4 way pot, I'm dropping 22->66 from my range because I'm not convinced that we're making our money back. We under realise our equity when we don't hit a set so we effectively have to hit, and get paid, and not lose the hand anyway. I'd rather play KQs/QJs/JTs and look to rip flop with some combo draw.

Well it's really up to you how much you're going to put in UI when setmining in an eleventeen way pot. Are we going to lose a single small bet some of the time? Ok, fair enough, so add that to the rather smallish overall RIO we have with setmining. But how often are we going to lose our stack without hitting a set? I should hope never? But we'll lose our stack with TPGK a bunch; probably not enough to make these spots unprofitable (opponent dependent, imo), but certainly debatable whether they are more profitable than setmining here (plummets very quickly as our kicker drops, imo).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah, honestly I don't mind dropping the smaller pairs either, as they also add RIO; 22 just has so much more RIO than 77 if a non-idiot is willing to get it in with you postflop. But I'm also not convinced we flop a combo draw enough to warrant playing those weaker suited broadways, plus they have RIO against dominating Axs/etc.

GcluelessNLnoobG

We should be dragging the pot on the flop some percentage of the time with the worst hand, especially if we are closing the action preflop (given our relative position to the preflop raiser).

Hence my comment about seeing over 1/2 of the hands having an AI call. If yes, then it pays off. If not, it doesn't. I've not played in a game where people were calling 100 BB AIs over 50% of hands any significant length of time (20 minutes).