3-5 spread $500 cap

I'm in BB folds to CO who limps folds to SB who makes it $75 to go SB is older Korean prob bout 50, I see KK ?? I have $500 in front he has $700

Thoughts on 3bet, shove, flat,??

This was a super weird spot that I havnt ran into so some help would be great. Ill post the rest in a bit

I make it $200.

Do you fold to a reraise?
Fold to an A high flop? Probably.

I can see reraising to $225 or more as $200 seems a bit low and if the flop comes JQ 5 I feel I am losing to JJ, QQ and AA, so it is a tough spot to allow him to call another $125.

Never.


It depends. We're in position so if he shoves into me on an A flop, I probably cry and fold. If he checks to me I'm still shoving.


I'm fine with $225.

If 3betting, what are we hoping to accomplish?

The only hand we're behind is AA and that hand is jamming. So we can't fold a better hand.

If we call, the SPR is under 4. We're stacking off on a non ace flop anyway. Our decision making doesn't get any easier by raising.

Finally, are there hands he would raise this much but will fold to another raise? The answer to that is yes. If he'll fold AK, QQ or worse, we lose value from these hands feeling obligated to make a cbet oop.

Therefore, raising doesn't benefit us. Folding is impossible, so the right answer is to call and play post flop poker. It isn't that I'm trying to save my stack, but rather trying to keep the villain's range as wide as possible.

That said, Kurt is right that if you are raising, you should never be folding pf.

raise/get it in pre, and on non ace flops.

maybe villain has the other KK and is raising big since KK is "vulnerable".


I had a AA vs AA vs KK hand recently.

raise. his range also inlcudes QQ and JJ.

Old asian guys hate to fold when they get 3bet.

If we are worried about making him fold then min raise it or make it like 175, this if we are going to stack off and made tht decision.

depends on the villain but i would either....

A. 3 bet to 200-225

B. flat out shove (some villains put us on AK there and call with TT JJ)

Whatever i thought would work best vs him in particular.

Incorrect. live players hate to fold when they get 3bet.

This is so ****ing insane, live players mentality when they get 3bet is that they gotta defend their money

This post is strange its almost a level? I dont think flatting is bad, but i think saying that 3betting accomplishes nothing makes no sense. Firstly if we assume villain is fairly bad and stacking off with JJ+ AK, then we lose value by flatting and the flop comes ace high or low cards respective to the range, where the villain would have stacked off pre. Never folding pre, not deep enough and with his huge raise its not possible for there to be enough reraising to justify it

Excellent analysis, especially the part in bold.

Interesting that after I made my post, I read YouCheckRaise's post wondering if venice's excellent post was in fact a level! I do take YCR's point well that villain stacks off pre with JJ+ / AK. If he is not a typical tight old man then you should include AQ, AJs, and 99/TT.

sorry, i cant let this go since i think it is like super incorrect.

A. by flatting we allow a 3rd player to have position on us.
B. KK is strong, but loses lots of value by each increasing player.
C. 3 betting DOES gain cash that flatting wont. Villain is going to call with
many hands such as 88 99 TT JJ QQ AK AQs KQs maybe, and if we flat and flop is overcards to the pairs OR low cards to his high cards, we make no more money hardly.
D. Preflop allows villains to imagine all sorts of good things that can happen such as hoping we have AK and shipping 77. All sorts of thoughts can go thru their head, where after the flop things start getting much more straitforward.

I think flatting here is terribad myself.

.

Flatting preflop is beautiful because we don't mind the CO committing an extra $70 as a 4 to 1 dog, and we don't mind him folding as it isolates us heads-up in position. He will almost always fold preflop, anyway.

It is even more gorgeous to flat preflop here because we can raise the donk bet all in on the flop and he will be committed to call at that point if he has any piece of it, or if he checks we can go all-in and take it down right there or have him calling with most of his range being way behind.

I don't care WHAT comes on that flop, I'm calling whatever he donks at me, and if he doesn't donk, I'm shoving. FOR VALUE. Even if I have two black kings and the flop comes AhQhJh. OK maybe every single flop except THAT one.

must be really crummy when threads get polarized strongly for the OP.

I guess OP will have to just sort it out.

My opinion to you (OP) is that flatting here is just a big mistake, gets you into a ton of trouble spots that we didnt need to get into, and most importantly misses value much moreso than being able to raise a donkbet (which really does show a ton more true strength than preflop shoves etc).

The only time i would say flatting is better would be vs a different villain, with our image being tight and nitty, where villain just will never put money money in the pot preflop without AA etc. This is not the case here.

I'm going to nitpick here. If you do have a situation where our image is "tight and nitty," and we put the small blind on AA in this situation, that would mean we must fold, NOT FLAT to see a flop! Since folding KK preflop is ridiculous and should never be done, and I do mean never, it must follow that we should not make an exception to our approach even for this situation. So even if your image is tight and nitty and you have the tightest Grandma in Las Vegas to your right, you are going to flat-call with the intent of trapping and inducing their out-of-position continuation bet.

Unless she looks at you with a grandmotherly or grandfatherly smile and a wink and a nod and lets you accidentally on purpose see her rockets, you must not and you cannot put villain on a one-hand range.

ONE time I had KK and folded preflop after my raise got reraised when I saw this absolute TELLBOX look like he was the cat who ate the canary, I mean he looked COMFORTABLE, and so I folded in an effort to prove to myself what an awesome cash game player I am. There was a small all-in so I got to see his QQ. Yeah, I'm soooo good at cash. So I learned the hard way (could have made a few hundred bucks in that hand)...never fold KK preflop. I was SURE he had AA. It's hard to get AA. They don't have it. And the times they don't will more than make up for the times they do.

OK, I'm on my soapbox, here's another post...

What is everyone so afraid of? To play poker? Why do we have to 3bet RIGHT NOW? Are you afraid they'll flop a set? Are you scared of an ace coming? Well guess what? You can flop a set, too! And if the ace comes that means it's that much less likely the villain has one! So grow a pair and trap for his whole stack.

And about that 3bet amount...unless you min-raise him, whatever amount you re-raise is going to be fairly committing, and he will know it. What do you do if you make it 200 to go and he goes all-in? You have to call as you are approaching the cap at this point. Are you seriously scared of AA? I already beat that horse dead (see above). Are you seriously expecting him to call so he can be at your mercy OOP? Of course you'd like him to 4bet so you can get it all in preflop, but THE RISK OF HIS FOLDING TO YOUR 3BET, WHATEVER THE AMOUNT (SINCE IT IS SO COMMITTING), IS TOO GREAT THAT YOU CANNOT DO IT. And if you do decide that it is in your best interest to 3bet, AT LEAST GO ALL-IN to get maximum value in the unlikely event he calls you.

OK soapbox over.

I agree with anl... get it in pre... you're getting more money in at 4 to 1 (most times), he's going to be more committed to the pot post flop and like already stated, its harder to get money out of worse hands that wouldn't call a 3 bet pre, post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrazz

I'm going to nitpick here. If you do have a situation where our image is "tight and nitty," and we put the small blind on AA in this situation, that would mean we must fold, NOT FLAT to see a flop!

star, we are on different wavelengths obviously. So just to be clear on my points....

A. If our image is tight/nitty and we feel villain will only fold or 4 bet better hands (AA), then we flat preflop.

B. There ARE times where folding KK preflop is correct. No need in getting into a pisswar over that one, im convinced totally of it, on paper as well as in practice and its just my stance on it. (figuring when its correct is another thing, but when villains range for doing something is nothing other than AA, then folding KK is correct, simple as that).

Sorry you got drawn out on one time, but dont extrapolate that to average ranges. I play with a ton of same regs (but businessmen type) every day. There are some that would never ever in life 4 bet without AA. Period. Not AK, not QQ, not JJ, but AA.

I can also tell you that out of ~12 or so times in past 18 months that i have had KK like this, and folded, that about 10 of the times they showed their hand (as always) and only 1 time did the player have AKs, and i was correct the other 9 times. And the player also told me he would have flatted AKo but since suited he decided to get aggressive with it.

Not to mention that folding KK to AA is a big plus for us, whereas folding KK to AK is really not as big a mistake since we lose to AK like ~1/3 the time. I try never to do that, but its bound to happen some.

C. Nobody is worried about playing postflop, nobody is scared to play poker. My stance on 3 betting or shoving is merely the highest EV possible for villains range as i see it.

I stand corrected that if you know your opponent well, whether that's having a ton of hands on him in your HUD or in a live game, a 0.5% 4bet stat can mean only one thing: AA. In that case, go ahead and fold. But 99% of the time you aren't going to have that solid of information to go on, and it is that 99% that we deal with.

Your point in A and in B seem contradictory. First of all, I don't understand why you threw in "villain will only fold OR 4bet AA" because no one folds AA preflop. So that leaves us with your corrected statement of "villain will only 4bet AA." Your prescription in that case is to CALL. Why on earth would we call in a cap game when our 18% equity lacks all odds--implied and actual--to do so?

The one scenario that you agree with me that you should flat the KK preflop is the one scenario that I would NOT flat it! It will be a damn rare scenario, and I would FOLD it, never flat. DUCY?

All this drivel about "folding KK to AA is a big plus for us," it's all well and good and I don't have a quarrel with it except it's like having a huge debate about how to play quads. If you misplayed quads 100% of the time that you got them, it wouldn't even begin to make a dent in your BB/100. So while it may be a big plus in that hand, in the larger scheme of things, it's a drop in the bucket. I think all those times you think you were folding to AA you would be surprised if you could only have seen their hole cards. And yes, I know that they showed you AA sometimes but I'll tell you to GTFO if you tell me they showed it to you every time or even a majority of the time.

Yes, the only hand that is competitive against your KK is AK, especially AKs, but it is precisely that hand that you want to go to war with. A lot of the time they have the standard AQ vs your KK, and you gotta go to war with your hand.

When you get KK, start thinking how you are most effectively going to go to war with the hand. Don't look for reasons to fold it. I can't believe I actually have to give this advice.

As for letter C, what is so wrong with letting the villain hang himself with his own rope and create better odds for him to call your all-in flop raise? At least give him a chance to donk you. Your preflop flat disguises the strength and is the most effective way to induce his betting first to act on the flop. Is there really a substantial difference between getting all the chips in on the flop vs preflop, and have you sufficiently discounted the risk of him folding to your committing preflop reraise? You need to let his TT see an 864 or QQ7 flop so he can get it in uberbad on the flop; you would blow his TT out of the water and wouldn't get nearly as much $$$ if you 3bet him pre.

OK I promise to shut up, I didn't mean to come across as thinking your analysis is off, there are many ways to skin a cat.

KK vs AA happens often enough that if you can learn to fold it in certain spots its enormously +EV. I'll still just about never fold it though unless we're at the very least 200bb deep and we have the villain's range nailed as solely KK+.

And yeah I'd just shove so that korean guy goes "I put you on dem pocket sebens, I caw" with his 88 or whatever.

You are making an assumption without anything to base it on. In reading the forums and talking to fish, people make this huge over bet for two reasons.

1. They have a monster (often AA, but also KK), but are tired of getting sucked out on in their minds. Their focus is on winning the pot, no matter how small it ends up as. They don't mind a call because the hand will be easy to play, but they don't want those pesky SC to worry about.

2. They have a good, but weakish hand like AK, JJ or QQ. They're worried about getting out flopped, so they want to take it down now. They know that anything better is going to raise, so they can get out.

Group 1 is not folding but Group 2 is always folding because they are scared.

Stack size is critical in this situation. I think you'll find the ones that "get it in" light are those with about 50BB or less. It is hard to track live, but on-line the dividing line is very bright in this area.

We don't have a read on the Hero, but unless he's been playing table captain and showing that he throw stacks in lightly, the villain is going to give Hero a tight range (AA, KK, AK).

The CO can be ignored for now. He's either got nothing or AA. He's folding to all the action pf everything but AA. If he has AA, he'll raise over and you'll be in one of ANL situations where you can toss KK. Therefore, Hero is not going to be oop, but will have position on the SB.

FWIW, I every time I read a post complaining about how their KK always runs into AA when they get it in. Most of the time, their play to guarantees it.

We can assume he is a fish by his 15x overraise? And im not sure he is definately folding your group 2