So why wouldn't you raise the turn then?

You think that counting on a 2nd barrel from air is more valuable than folding out AQ, AK, pocket pairs, and stray 3's and 5's that made it this far?

because i think raising the turn makes very little sense from Heros line so i don't think it folds out really anything we are behind

This is a pretty solid place to call down with ace high I think. The board pairing greatly lowers the number of hands that he's accidentally value betting us with.

I like the way you played the hand overall. It really takes advantages of the player's weaknesses and doesn't expose us to being bluffed.

On the flop we have a hand with some good possibilities but which can't stand a check/raise. And we are against someone who check/raises often, too often. Great spot to check back.

Now we've basically turned our hand face up as whiffed overs. Normally turning our hand face up is really bad, but against an unbalanced bluffer when we have a hand we can surprise him and call down with, it can be a great line. Contrast AJ here with QJ. With QJ we can't call down, and we don't have our backdoor nut draw, so we can happily cbet/fold the flop.

Raising the turn would be terrible because we rep nothing. We aren't checking back overpairs on the flop. We aren't checking back TPTK either. This sort of player will correctly go to war with us and we will be forced to fold.

His bet sizing and "confident" river action makes it look like he wants and expects whiffed overs to fold. If he had trips and put us on AK, he would bet smaller methinks. So we disappoint him and call.

He will show up with flushes and full houses and low PP sometimes. He shows up with totally random air often enough that the call was profitable, so if he shows up with better we just accept the small beat (when he shows up with better it IS a beat) and move on.

This is pretty much what was going through my head during the hand.

Grunch:

How long have you been playing with this guy? Him being overly aggressive can be a product of him having a good run of cards etc. I'm sure he is agressive but exactly how aggressive? How many times has he Xraised?

In response to an aggressive player I am not a fan of taking passive lines with A high type holdings. I'm not looking to play a guessing game even in position. He can have plenty of thin value hands in this spot. Your hand looks like exactly what it is (A high).

I prefer a standard Cbet on the flop and evaluate. If he is truely Xraise happy we can value own him later on with a straight forward Bet bet bet line.

I guess I can see how checking the flop doesn't fit with our pre-flop line if we had a value hand. But I did post a disclaimer claiming that it is something I would totally do with T9, 89, A9s, and more.

Still though, I see reverse implied odds all over this hand.

You're only value comes from calling down his air. I get it, I do, but if we believe he's betting the turn with air and flush draws that we beat, why do we still call when the flush comes in? An OESD got there too. Still don't see why he can't have a nine. Bullies get cards too.

Frankly, what river cards do we like? Are we still calling down if a ten hits the river? An 8?

Are we raising a Jack?

In the hand as played, villain bet the river because he had no way to win the hand. What if he had pocket 8's and decided to check/call river after you called his turn bet?

I just think that if you're expecting to bluff catch against air, then you need to EXPECT him to bet again on the river. So you're essentially expecting to call off 175 to win 250. I don't think his range has enough air by the river to justify that play.

Gotta think a street ahead here. The only way you get to a free showdown on the river is if you're beat.

9 was an awesome bluff card for you and your image. By the way, I'm not sure if playing like a calling station is the best way to counter villains perception of you as a calling station.
How is a 9 a good bluff card? I don't rep a 9 at all. Would you expect me to check top pair on that flop? Maybe I have quad 9s. BTW, you are the one who said I was a calling station -- V has no idea how I play. This isn't the time to make a move. Maybe after this hand I can.

Why? You're really counting on him firing again? Seems like a better use of your time would be to get the better hands to fold. There's more of those. You pretty much have air too you know. you missed your BD flush draw
Yes, I absolutely expect him to fire again -- even with air. It's his style and would be the only way he could win. Also, I don't think he's folding a better hand on this turn because I don't rep anything.

You don't think that any A3, A5, some 5x, and 66-88 would take this line?
Maybe, but so would his air.

I am exploiting this player's playing style. I might be wrong sometimes, but at the table, I thought my read was spot on and the board ran out very well for me.

FWIW, I think his snap-big-bet on the river is a timing tell that he doesn't have the flush. Most players, if they actually make the flush on the river, will stop and consider how much value they can get, how often they are overflushed, etc. Snap-betting is a bluff more often than not here. If he knows that and levels us, NH.

Another comment I forgot to make. On the river, raising is bad. Even though we have the nut flush blocker, we would cbet overs/flush draws on the flop, so we can't really rep the flush properly. Besides, getting an aggro villain to fold a strong hand is generally a bad idea. So raising pretty much gets folds from worse (air) and calls from better (flushes etc). We might get him to fold 66 or whatever, but overall it's a bad bet I think.

Grunch

As played I might raise the river. curious if anyone else might.
I think he would bet spades on the flop not the turn. And with the As we can rep a flush after we called on the turn. This would be totally read dependent however and I would need to think that he was more than just a spewy agro donkey. If ive seen him make a fold after he was "caught" raising, I might raise the river. otherwise I probably give up because he definitely can be betting PP or hands that hit the board.

The V is more likely to bluff HU. This is 3-way with another player in between.

C-betting the flop also has FE vs. hands like 66/44/22.

At first glance, I thought we might be able to rep a flush on the river. However, most people who were the PFR and flopped a NFD with overs on this board are betting this 99% of the time. I guess it's possible but if I'm villain, I have a hard time believing it. Then again if we are truly perceived as that weak/passive, it's possible. Hard to imagine even the nittiest of players not getting a bet in with a 15-out draw on the flop.

Against this described opponent I'd rather cbet/3bet the flop. If I have ace high, I'm more than fine with villains folding their "air" to my bets to be honest.

I didn't c-bet the flop because he had been checkraising. It was raising the turn where I didn't want to fold his air. 3-betting the flop is an interesting idea, but not something that crossed my mind at the table.

You can't win if you fold, so better cawl.

Grunch

I think this was really well played. Being passive which encourages him to bluff with air is exactly the way to play a bully. If you really think he is likely to c/r the flop, then betting just plays into his hand because you can't call a c/r there. The only other questionable street is the river and I think the pot odds are great for a call here. If this guy was bluffing the turn (which he will often do with that board and your passiveness) then he will almost certainly fire again on the river when another spade showed up.

I reacted on you not wanting to cbet the flop because you were afraid he would raise. I think cbetting and then 3betting if he raises is preferable to this line, but some people might consider that an info raise...

A turnraise reps nothing, so calling seems way better. But I dunno, calling two streets with ace high, when you don't even beat his whole bluffing range... I don't like this guessing game.

You're always playing a guessing game with these guys. It's not like playing against a nit or a calling station who rarely shows aggression without a hand. This is one reason why bullies make people uncomfortable: They force other players to play a guessing game.

There isn't much in his value range besides flushes. Higher aces and pocket pairs often raise PF.


If you are playing a bully the right way, you will be playing a high variance game.


If your hand looks like A high, that's a good thing. Will a bully expect hero (who has a tight image) to call the river with ace high when the possible flush hits? Of course not, and that encourages the bully to bluff with air.

Tightening up because we want to avoid guessing games can play into his hands, so we should make sure we don't overdo that. The bully likes it when opponents tighten up and wait for a hand.

Agreed, absolutely WP!

I don't like a c-bet on the flop. The b/f line works against players who are straightforward. It is a disaster against players like villain who has been "check-raising relentlessly" according to the read on this guy. If we b/f, we will be putting money into the pot and often folding to his bluffs which plays right into his hands. The way villain plays is the perfect way to exploit the b/f line. In other words, we leave ourselves open to a villain who is likely to pounce on one of our weaknesses.

The b/f line works much better against players who rarely raise the flop unless they have it. You fold because you're almost certainly behind. But against this villain, when we fold we will be folding far more often than usual when we're still ahead.

Our hand on the flop looks like exactly what it is: Overcards. We also have a tight image. Occasionally villain will have a fd which will encourage him to c/r.

Another thing I like about checking is it gives us another chance to make top pair with an ace or a jack, which have a lot of value in a spot like this.

If our hand looks so much like overcards, then I wouldn't count on there being "a lot of value" in pairing your Ace or Jack.

And I think the word "bully" is skewing some of the responses here. If the guy is playing aggressive, and it's working, maybe he's just good. Maybe he's a loose aggressive player making great reads and putting pressure on the right places. This whole "bully" image is coming from the perception of a 47 year old woman who has been card dead.

If he's been check/raising so much....maybe you could name a hand he's shown down? Or described the board textures? Or the number of opponents? Or position?

So far all I'm hearing is:
Hair gel + Nice watch = bad cards


When you call 50 on the turn with ace high, expecting him to have a range of mostly air....can you quantify that range? Because if he's such a bully, he's going to fire with air on the river, right? So when you call 50, how much are you REALLY calling off. Play a street ahead!

You're essentially committing 175 to win 250. How much air does villain need in his range for that to profitable? Like....alot. (We need to be good >41%)

And unless I've seen him show down A8, KQ, and JT in these spots, I think you're making gigantic mistakes by not making a play at the pot.

OP, you got lucky. Tons of his range beats you.

I worded that too strongly but I'd expect a bluff from this villain if an ace shows up, and possibly even if a jack shows up. When the spade shows up on the river we could snap off even more bluffs in his range.

Sure, villain could be good. I'm just going by the read that was given, but we might have a very different opinion if we watched this player.

I've seen some really aggressive players run over tables not because they were good, but because the other players were so bad. I think that's a more likely possibility.


I'm not convinced this player bets the river that often after the call on the turn. If I called the turn here I'd expect villain to at least occasionally check it on the river. To me, it looks like villain tried to take advantage of a scare card in this hand when the spade came on the river, but usually the river won't be a third spade.

A small percentage of the time we will also hit top pair on the river and we won't call with air in those spots.

In short, the possibility of villain checking the river and the possibility we hit make a turn call look much better than committing 175 to win 250.

This is all true. As I stated, I never saw one of his hands. He was betting into any weakness, and these players were not responding.

Results:
I called (obviously) and told V I called so he needed to show first (basically if he wanted to see my hand). Normally, I flip my cards immediately, but I wasn't going to give this guy that out. (I really didn't like his attitude, and I get along with most people -- especially at the poker table.) I wanted to know what he had. Instead of mucking, which I would have done, he said, "Ten," and flipped over T4 off.

The table was shocked when I flipped over AJo, and he seemed a bit steamed. I was called to PLO the next orbit, so I don't know if the table changed or if he just kept running them over. I didn't get to play another hand with him.

I think calling down here is madness. I think the OP played by her "gut", got lucky, and is now looking for validation. You can't reverse engineer EV here.

Here is villain's range by my estimation:
JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 63s+, 52s+, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o, 65o

We're 50/50 against that range. So a bet/fold somewhere along the way would have been pretty awesome.

Sure, it's easy to say "2s is a good card" after you've played the hand. But was it really a good card? What would be a bad card?

Which of these potential river cards hurts your equity most: 8h, Ts, Qc?
(HINT: It's not the ten of spades)

OP, if an offsuit 8 rolls off, would you know that you're now losing to >60% of villain's range?

Also, the possibility of villain checking the river DOES NOT HELP US. If an "aggresive bully" villain checks the river, then that means he probably has a hand with show down value of some kind. So saying "we can call 50, cause he might check sometimes" is crazy cause we're always beat if he checks. We only WIN if he barrells twice with nothing, and that equation IS 175 to win 250

I had a read and I went with it and I was right. You would have folded or raised somewhere and made less money or had to fold on the flop. Fine. We play differently. This is how I chose to play against this player. I was there, remember? I stated it's difficult for you guys to give advice because it's based on read, but I gave you my read -- don't argue about what it was or whether it was correct. Amazing that you will argue about something that you have no idea about because you were not even there.

your range is off...

as i said from the beginning, if he has hands that connect with this board that arent a 9, he's going to have a ton of trash that missed. what is the main take away from this? widen your range estimation against a player like this and widen your own calling/3betting range

NH OP. well played.