Early in 1/2 game eff stack aprox 190 First hand second orbit on table. Only reads are everyone to my right is deep and playing tight and the people to my left are recreational with the exception of 1 old guy and this grinder 28 y/o dude. but only the old guy is in the hand.

I'm dealt 8h 10h in bb...

Utg limps

Utg+1 opens for $7 ... 4 callers + I call

35 on flop, I check dark.

8 10s 4s .

Utg all in for 17 ready to go to his bachelor party

Utg + 1 calls hoping to buy his girlfriend a few more collagen injections so she can look like hideous and have huge lips.

Old guy feelin that memorial day weekend swagg 3 bets to bets 40

Hero?
Hand is completely beating the tilted 17 all in and the guy w the ugly girlfriend is just floating , he has only 80 and a trashy girlfriend behind.... The old guy I dont put him on anything too strong I suppose a flush and overs or just an overpair .... Im all like should I steal this bitch and give him improper odds to draw or make him fold his Ax garbage?

what would you do in this spot. I thought about maybe if pushing and saying some slick **** like pick a card It would help me repping a set because my push seemed kind of like an overpair or a air overcard type 1/2 spew steal.



Also consider playing this hand in a tournament or a deeper stack....

Should i be afraid to get it in? A wise 2p2er told me never go broke in a cash game without the pure nuts and I if I shove I'm doing that here so im wondering also whats an ubertight threshold for getting it in on the flop. Sets only? or 2pair when your read is good...


And I know checking dark is stupid and makes you appear to have a set but If you hit a flop hard 1/2 donks seldom believe you and these are the player types I was against.

Whats up any advice appreciated.

OP, your hand history is super long and rambly with a zillion questions. Simplify and specify please. Otherwise, it is tl;dr

Also, never include results. They skew people's advice. I took them out, but left the rest of the ramble, because I don't know which parts you'd like to edit out.

Fold pre.

And old guys don't have swagg...they have the nuts. Fold to any old guy 3b.

You think you're funny with the put downs. You're not. Drop the attitude and just ask poker questions. try to be funny wo coming off as an arrogant ass.

Don't ever check dark.

Not a fold pre getting 5/1 unless your post flop play is garbage. I would put the old guy squarely on pocket fours, tens, or jacks. I'm folding here and not thinking twice about it.

Board: Ts 4s 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.798% 46.80% 00.00% 4633 0.00 { Th8h }
Hand 1: 53.202% 53.20% 00.00% 5267 0.00 { JJ-TT, 44 }

Orly?

You're snap folding a hand when you're 43% to win with tons of dead money in the pot? I'm curious about that.

That's a really good point. When an old guy basically min raises on a board like this I just think he thinks he has the nuts. Folding here is pretty damn nitty, but I'm happy to donate my $7 and get some insight on his play when I see this hand. Obv with more reads this could be a call or shove.

so far, in my limited experience, min raises on the flop turn out to be top pair hands far more than draws or nuts. does your experience show the same, or different?

Player dependent. For most people I've seen, especially nittier players, min raises tend to be made hands. Top pairs, two pairs, sets. They tend to call or shove their draws. However, I did play a weird hand the other day where I flopped a straight and bet 5 BB (into 7), he min raised to 10 BB, I RR'd to about 35, and then he shoved for like 120 more, and he had a bare flush draw. I rarely see a min raise/shove line with a naked FD, especially that deep. Usually they raise bigger or just call.

even OMCs are capable of raising less than the mortal nuts. it's hard to flop two pears, so i'm going with it.


also, i thought op was pretty entertaining.

This is a pretty big fold with no other read than the guy is old. In general older people have the goods, but that doesn't mean they always do. On such a drawy board the typical old super nitty guy usually raises a bit bigger because they are afraid of everything. The real mistake here is not leading the flop. Given how it was played I would get it in as you have no read other than he is old. It is possible for him to have jj qq kk aa and sets.

I don't like the call pre-flop. Against a raise I'm almost always folding T8s from the bb.

Checking in the dark is pretty pointless in a multi-way pot and it's only benefit is to make us feel like a hot shot and get some camera time. There are some good strategic reasons to do it in a heads up situation.

You flopped a monster and should iso the V that's all in for $17. I agree that you're pretty much printing money against him. There are too many draws so you should fold them out, instead of pricing them in, and make a substantial re-raise.

Edit: I missed the part where OMC 3-bet to $40 and as played you should probably fold. It doesn't make much sense to raise and if you call there's a slight chance that the guy with the rail bird will shove and OMC will over shove leaving you with a tough decision.

When you called with T8 pf what were you looking to flop that wouldn't get you to fold? Just straight flushes?

I'm aghast that people want to fold here. I'd put AT in the old fella's range. Is this stupid?

Don't check dark.

Jam

Not much more to add but OP, I would start studying what poker terms actually mean. Effective stack size is not how much you have, but rather the smaller of the stack sizes in a hand. For example, if you have $10,000 and your opponent only has $25, the effective stack size is $25. The effective stacks are not 190 as you state in the OP. Against the UTG, the effective stack is only 24 and against the UTG+1, it is 87.

I apologize for the lack of clarity in all of my posts . I also apologize for any confusion or lack of clarity in this post as I am driving home from work using iPhone speech recognition

I am aware what effective stack means
Although I did not use the term properly
Effective stack against the old guy who is in middle position was my whole stack as he had me covered. Sorry 2 use the term the wrong way

I'm rambling I will also mentioned that 8 10 of hearts is a suited connector
Douche bag friend debated this.. There is obviously a gap but it is still suited and a connector so **** you J.

Whoever mentioned what are you looking to fold straight flushes and nothing else . I guess you are right pretty hard to flop a full or straight so I should be willing to stack with two pair if my read is correct.

He was an older guy but I am a young gun. Playing tight only still onn my first orbit's and checking dark I get credit for no hands but air this is how I knew I was ahead hand was underrepresented and I felt that he was betting a draw or in Overpar at best


Think I'm now allowed to post the result

The old guy villain had 7S8S middle pair and a flush draw. He hit the jack of spades on the turn and I bricked the river .scooping a 500$+pot . Ish.

My friend who plays 5/10 at the Woods said if you aren't willing to get it in with the best and you have to fold pre-flop. Since I already made it to the flop I think my move was correct. If we are in a vacuum would you make the same call in a tournament I think I would fold even though my friend says he would call. ESP because typically that line would indicate you are beat but I had a read .

Sorry my post was poorly written I'm usually on tilt when I write posts.

I can see why many people think that folding to the old Man min raise is the Safeway especially with seven dollars in the pot.


My friend also said that he would make this play deep Stack and I disagree . Disagree because this scenario would never exist in a 100 BB plus game. Are in a vacuum if it were to occur he firmly believes that it's the right play and I suppose I'm inclined to agree since he is arguably the best player at FW and don't ask me to name him.

Here comes the degen logic




Tired of stacking off of two pair regardless of what Math says. Contemplating how I lost a week and a half's paycheck again with such a ****ty hand andn nothing pot + my other 2 buy ins where I got 4:1 on a flush and bricked obviously losing to a higher full. **** off. And then there was a bad push open ended pm got called by tp and bricked . Gah. Pain.


The worst poster on 2+2 everything I write is a ****ty long disorganized ramble and I apologize to the mods and everyone who has attempted to help me with this hand



TL DR

You hit the flush draw with 7S8S parenthesis pair and flush draw parenthesis and I'm going to be a crying donkey bitch for the rest of the week

They say hey how was your memorial day weekend I say it was lovely and ****ing bluff triple barrel the **** out of them . Yeah I was at a barbecue all weekend ha ha. ****ing ****. Still can't ****ing believe I didn't scoop that ****ing pot built **** rage **** **** ass piss **** ****

See you next time 2+2 I'll try to bring another interesting and to the table even if I'm only at Foxwoods for one orbit

Dammit I just read that post that **** I'm sorry Will edit later if you allow me to does a couple words in there that really only makes sense goddamnit never mind **** you

lol. It's all good man. If it's too late for youto edit, just send me what you meant to say in PM and I'll edit it for you.

Really, you both played it fine post, IMO. Pair plus FD is good spot to semi-bluff, and shoving over it on a board this wet to get him to lay down his equity is OK if you know he has any semi-bluff in his range. If you didn't already know that, I'd lay it down, as the default for OMCs raising here, even small, is usually a set.

grunch

old guy can be raising a lot of one pair hands and draws against these villains. old guys will do the minraise for a free card / "take control of the hand" against dumb fish.

i read this flop action as short stack all in, call, raise by OMC, not a 3b.

you have to make it more than half your remaining stack in order to deny him proper odds so just shove.

Shove all in, fist bump the old guy, then when he looks at your fist with a confused look on his face, punch the other dude's girlfriend in the mouth and give her those fat lips she's been asking for.

Solid advice itt.

I am donk and don't know what omc means... Old man caller??? Jesus I shouldn't even said that. Anyway I guess I misused 3b...

Utg all in utg +1 calls Mp old man/ OMC (wtf) bets 40 then I 3B all in

I'm learning !

OMC = old man coffee. You'll see them mainly during the day at Foxwoods. They're retired or on disability and come in every day to get out of the house. They'll only raise AA and maybe KK and otherwise on call with a QQ or AK. Their signature drink is a cup of coffee in front of them that they sip from as they are folding hands and watching TV. Formerly know as rocks.

Another problem with your hand is that you called a suited one gapper against a raiser that only had 31 chips. You don't have the IO to make this a profitable call. The final problem is that you need to build a bankroll. You're tilting because you lost over a week's pay.