I suspect this is true. I think the EV difference for a competent player choosing to raise, fold or limp say 22-55 in EP in a usual soft live line up is pretty marginal. If the table has a couple of decent players, it’s likely a fold and if it has a couple of total live ones, it’s likely necessary to play but limp vs. raise probably makes little difference.

I couldn't agree more. I do think the tipping point is if you have an aggro bad player at the table who likes to raise big or re-raise a lot.
I know its exploitable to raise good hands and just limp hands that can make nut hands such a small PP but you would be surprised how many people don't pay attention. Its a form of pot control, which is also exploitable as your ranges are often capped.
I feel folding small PP from EP in live games is just giving away too many good situations. Especially with all the information available on every street of play.
The major problem is we are OOP, so we want the pot as small as possible until our equity vastly increases.

Have you ever played 1/2 NL live?

I've played more 1/2 than I care to admit and now 2/5. I like the irony itt of ppl saying oh 1/2 players are horrible look at these drooling mouth breathers then let me open limp oop as much as I can...you're basically becoming a worse player bc you're playing horrible players, and the good player at the table now looks at you as one of them. Maybe I'm confused. Are you guys open limping with a plan to call or 3 bet or to fold to aggression?
Open limping works (for me) if I think a certain target player will raise. I'm not a strategy savant like you folks, and a part of me appreciates the experimenting. How abt one of you tries this for a full year and come and report back: open limp 22-88 oop for 12 months

a lot of players do this now because of HH promo's.

in a passive game your giving up a little in an agro game your giving up a lot

Ive been doing it in 2/5 games for over 6000 hours. Ive reported back many times. Nobody ever changes their minds about anything so I stopped reporting anything I do. You obviously wont change your mind either so do whatever you want to do.

Everyone does what works for them; that's why poker continues to exist and thrive live. I'm just wondering if you limp oop to call, 3 bet or to fold your 22-88? A big part of this forum is to get new perspectives on how others play who you would never otherwise encounter, so I'm actually curious if you're limping to call, raise or fold

I dont know if this question is for me or not, but I disagree with your premise. A big part of this forum SHOULD be to get other peoples perspectives and to see what you can learn from them. What it actually is, is a place where everyone tells everyone else that they are wrong. Everyone thinks their way is the only way and they have it all figured out. That's why I have all but stopped posting. Its actually quite amusing when these people who have it all figured out post their win rates at the end of each year.

Agree with the part regarding a lot posters believe their way is the only way. I have my own way (just like everyone else), but I've never said it's only way. Mostly people should probably just aim towards their own comfort zone / strengths / avoid weakness / etc. and they'll likely do ok.

Regarding posting winrates at the end of the year, very few posters here actually do this. I'm one of the rare ones that do. IIRC, you never have?

And coming back slightly on topic, IIRC, you haven't actually collected data on how 88-22 limped OOP actually fares over your whole 6000 sample size, correct? Not that you should (that would be borderline insane, imo), but just sayin'. I haven't either (due to not being insane). I can say that I did limp 88-22 in EP in a 1300 stretch before my Super Nit method, whereas in 1651 hours of my Super Nit method I don't play 66- OOP, and my winrate has gone up 52% compared to that previous stretch. Course I'm also doing other things in my Super Nit method (such as BIing shorter, never raising OOP, etc.) that may be a large part of that increase in winrate too. Or it may be just lol sample size. It's possible playing 66- OOP has little effect either way, but without getting significant sample sizes (my samples are obviously lol) and tracking their actual results both ways, it's pretty tough to say with certainty either way, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

No I haven't collected data specifically on 22-88 OOP. However, I have collected extensive data on set mining. Sometimes that happens in position and sometimes OOP, but if there is ever a hand category that position matters very little, its set mining.

I also dont just call every raise with every small pair with no regards to anything else.

Even if playing 22-88 in EP was only a breakeven proposition you should still do it. Anything that makes you appear looser and doesnt cost you money you should be doing. But any good player should be able to play any pp from any position for a profit. They arent just for set mining either.

One reason that open-limping is frowned upon is because it often leads to multi-way pots. Math-oriented players sometimes seem uncomfortable in multi-way pots because there may be no GTO solution.

Open-limping is an exploitable strategy, but all exploitative strategies are themselves exploitable. So, the question is: what kind of players can be exploited in limped pots?

One type of player who can exploited is someone who plays too many hands when there is no raise, but respects raises and folds appropriately when it is more than the minimum to come in. They could be players who fold too much to any raise or, as I often find to be the case at my home casino, regulars who fold too much to specifically my raises because they fear me.

Another type of player who can be exploited is the over-aggressive player who raises too often in an attempt to punish the limpers. This player becomes vulnerable to being exploited by a limp-reraise line. For an extreme example, imagine a tilted player who starts shoving blind in every limped pot. You would, of course, limp any hand that you would call his all-in with, allowing you to get away folding a good hand if it becomes obvious that someone else is trapping or has already called his all-in.

When I am at a table full of players I don't know, there are some spots where I open-limp just to gauge their reactions to someone open-limping. Then, I adjust my strategy based on how they play.

That being said, the easiest way to improve most players' game is to fold more preflop. Open-limping is an invitation to play too many hands, so most players would benefit by never having an open-limping strategy. I believe that I can have an open-limping strategy. I don't know if you can, so what's this "we" stuff?

+1

+2

Im not a fan of open limping per se. But Im even less of a fan of saying "never open limp, period, in any game." I think you should have a general open limping strategy ready to go in case you find yourself in a game where you can get away with it.