Ok so Harrah's casinos have the button straddle. It's just your basic double the bb straddle, but on the button instead of utg. What this causes is the sb to act first, followed by bb, then utg, all the way to your straddle on the button, thus creating you to act last for the most part. I'm just curious to whether you guys think this is +EV to button straddle 100% of your buttons in your standard 1-2 or 2-5 game? You would think that it is, purely on the fact that you have the button, and on top of that you make the sb and bb act first, thus creating even a better table position. What ya think?

I guess it could be +EV depending on the overall tightness or ability of the players at the table, but personally I don't ever see how it makes sense to put money in the pot before you see your cards.

its +ev to do it if it doesnt change how the game plays. if ppl adjust properly it just makes the game nittier and prob hurts ur overall hourly if multi ppl are doing it. i personally dont do it despite the fact that its somewhat +ev in the game i play. maybe i will start, idk yet. i just think it isnt good for the overall game so i dont do it. if the game is going to play super loose despite the fact that ppl are straddling the btn then u should def do it.

Stack sizes are hugely important as well. The smaller your stack is, the less practical good for a straddle, as hands play themselves and position doesn't matter. Ie: if you have 8/8 vs. AQ with 5 BB each, position doesn't matter because you're likely all-in pre, whereas if you have 20-50 position matters a little more and suddenly as you have 100+ or even 250+ suddenly position (and making the pot a little bigger) are more important.

If you are thinking about any straddle in terms of EV, you're doing it wrong.

Would you blind raise OTB 100% of the time ordinarily without the straddle? If not, outline the advantages of acting behind two players pf only who will be oop for the rest of the hand.

From what I've read, straddling is ALWAYS -EV if the majority of the table isn't doing it.

As for the button straddle, imo, it breaks one of Caro's cardinal rules of poker: "Make friends with the players to your left, profit from the players to your right."

After the third or fourth orbit, I'd be pretty annoyed if you kept straddling my blind from the button. The game compensates me for being forced to P$IP by giving me position preflop. Now you're taking it away with your ignorant straddle. Think I'm not going to bet or 3-bet into you when I sense the FEAR?

i usually straddle the button everytime if i have have 200+ bbs. i feel like it gives me the advantage of playing a bigger pot in position and i'm still able to play the typical 100 bb game even with the straddle

Button straddle is the best thing to ever happen for low stake games. I would do it every time. I thought it was called mississippi straddle?

To answer your question it is ++++++++EV if you have great post-flop skills.

It's +EV if everyone else is doing it. it allows you to raise more with good hands and build bigger pots. it's -EV if you're the only one doing it. instead of committing $3 blind you're now committing $7-$8 blind. always better to build pots with good hands off of other people's money

Its HUUUUGE if we do it and nobody else does. Its BIG if we do it and a few others do.

Obv hurts if everybody tightens up due to it but mostly people at these limits adjust the wrong way so its great.

MS is the most idiotic button advantage you can get and Im surprised they ever devised it.



Note: Some might argue the benefit of us only doing the MS. This is doubling the limit and I have the button every single hand and put up a BB for my trouble. I would play that game on the button (and blind every hand) every single hand for as long as I could stay awake.

Why aren't you just making a blind bet pf of double the BB if they don't have the MS OTB? Or do you?

A Mississippi straddle allows you to straddle from any position on the table. I believe Harrah's only allows a live or a button straddle.

Thanks for the clarification.

Blind bets are not the same. The button straddle allows you to control the last action whether its a raise or a check. It also does not allow the whole table to limp in with they're crap.

Its funny how if someone straddle's at the table the fish are too scared to limp. Its funny how one more blind makes a world of a difference.

So straddlers in your casinos don't raise their straddles regardless what they have?

to me, the MS cripples the blinds. The blinds are the real button in ordinary game. They are last and at full tables, card clumping DOES occur. Just like blockers etc do affect hand values on average.

If i could play EVERY single hand as the MS on the button PLUS force all the 2/5 players to be playing actually 5/10 now, I would do it. Every hand.

1- I have ultimate and absolute position on every street.
2- I force the action to double the stakes --even better when all are deeper.
3- I pay one BB for all these benefits.

I would play the entire night in this position.

haha, to show how strong this is I had a night where honest to Christ i did this.

I let several guys bet me (only one at a time) a 3 to 1 prop bet of $150 to $50 that when i had the button I would not win the pot. 3 guys took turns betting me when i had the button. They quit after about 3 hours.

Note: I was running good, held the hammer, and was in the zone, plus the table was in general a bunch of "ego player wannabees" BUT were weak tightish.

All in all, it showed just how strong the button by itself can be IF you have the right villains and properly read the situations well and move on every opportunity that presents itself.


Let me make it clear another way.
Suppose we were all deep like 400bb at 2/5. Now they allow me to MS for 4 times the BB and we play effectively 10-20 now with 2000 stacks. NOW the real blinds are negligible and I am now the BB BUT I am on the button. Nobody can squeeze from the blinds. I have absolute position and power.

Also Venice10, i think maybe of it this way. Suppose I could pay $10 and have the ultimate button (blinds act first) every time in a 2-5 game? The blinds are literally crippled in this format. Think of how many times the blinds fold first, leaving me on button with dead $7 in pot. The others who try for the blinds must deal with me having ultimate position.

Its a brutally pitiful game format in favor of the button.

However, this is for only pf. After the flop, you have absolute position anyway. If you are playing 400BB deep, pf just doesn't really matter that much, especially since the BB and SB have to figure in that they will play oop post flop. While there might be a couple of players that understand 3 betting light out of the blinds, it just isn't common enough at LLSNL to give you much of an advantage. Anything they are raising out of the blinds, they're raising whether they act first or last.

Against very strong competition in the blinds, maybe. However, I'd rather have the option of picking the hands I want to **** over the limper and blinds that being forced to do it with ATC. I think most people are forgetting that the button should be where you're winning most of your money. The question isn't whether you should push your advantage OTB. It is really a matter whether it is +EV to do it blind every time under all table conditions.

It is a bit like what KurtSF once observed. Every hand other than AA is really just meta-game. Every position other than the button is pretty much the same thing.

Keep in mind though, that the blinds are basically where all the major loss is and the button is where all the major gain is. So if i can completely cripple the blinds when i have the MS, and others do not cripple me when I am in the blinds, then I have just destroyed the game before I even start.

That's not my question though. You can make a blind raise on the button without having an "official" straddle. In fact, you can make it any amount to adjust for the stacks when it is a blind raise.

My questions are what specific advantages against a standard LLSNL table are you gaining by being able to act last (pre flop only, post flop the button always acts last) because of a straddle rule that you don't have if you just blind raised pf.

I know this sounds a bit pedantic, but I've never seen a button blind raise pf. I'm well aware that just because nobody does it, it doesn't mean that it is a bad idea. However, if you believe that it is +EV to straddle OTB, you have to explain why it is -EV to blind raise if you don't blind raise OTB, too.

Like most things in poker, it depends.

Deep against lesser players straddle from the button all the way to the highjack if it won't upset the table.

Shallow against good players forget it.

GS

You don't get the option to raise the limpers if you blind raise. The straddle rarely changes the number of limpers and puts a lot more money in the pot post flop regardless of your pre flop play. A couple of days ago in a 1-2 game I put 4 on the button. Six limpers and I have 82o. I flop bottom two and get it all in against a naked flush draw and top pair with a good kicker.

GS

I think the main thing you gain is getting to play a larger game from the button on all streets.

I don't ever straddle in my 2/5NL game at the casino. You can straddle from any position with priority being the button. Reasons I don't straddle is I feel I have an edge post flop and if I straddle, the stack sizes compared to mine are cut by at least half. My manueverablity post is a bit tougher to play when spr's becoming lower. As we all know compared to live and online, live the pots are bloated pf and on the flop for the most part and our cb's tend to be bigger on flop in live play. So creating more straddled pots, our variance tends to go up especially if we are playing lots of hands and raising lots of pots. Most live players don't buy in for the full 100+bb's from what i've seen and stack sizes become even more important in straddled pots.

Maybe I will try it one day, but for now, Im to uncomfortable straddling. Great thread btw

Wanted to give this thread a bump. I'm going to be venue changing to a casino that is much busier on account of a BBJ getting to 400k vs the place I usually play at that just got hit.

I did a little scouting report tonight and the room was packed with 8 1/2 tables on the go at 9pm on a Wednesday.

Anyway, I wanted to read up button straddle basics because this room plays with one. I don't plan on putting one on from what I've read. I'll be buying in for 100bb.

Anyone have any opposing views to what has been posted here since 2011?

This! Ultimate last, it is not a blind bet. Any chance I get to play with a straddle OTB and I'm atleast 200bb deep, I'm hammering it. Or if we are all 100bb I'm still doing it.

Still feel the way I felt two weeks ago...