I'm just curious, are there any spots at 1/2 or 2/5 where you can bluff raise the river? It's a play that simply isn't part of my game, and never has been even when I've played in tougher online games. But I've been thinking that the river is the biggest money street, and if I could figure out how to win just a few more pots OTR when I have no hand at all, it would really pump up my win rate. But then I think, "no, cause they won't be thinking about my hand, they'll just be thinking they had a hand strong enough to bet for value, so they'll call."

Bottom line is, I don't know if there are many good bluff raising spots, and there may not be enough to justify it, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on this by people who have incorporated this play into their game at these stakes (if anyone has).

You answered your own question.

I gave up on these advanced moves. In LLSNL, they are more like FPS than anything else. If you c/r the river 10 times in a row with stone cold nuts, you still get called next time when you are doing it as bluff.

Most small stakes players are very polarized on the river, so it would be pointless to ever raise them. But I don't think it would be bad to mix in some bluff raises on the river against regs that you know are bet folding. But obviously your line would have to make a lot of sense against thinking players. If you get called it's not all terrible since they will know that bluff raises are in your range and surely this will get more of your value bets paid off later. Overall at the small stakes I don't think this would help your hourly very much, it will come up very rarely if you're table selecting correctly.

there are spots...but few and far between.

You might be able to do it against a fish that block bets the river when the flush draw comes in...but like you said, he might just say "**** it" and call because he flopped a set for the first time in a few hours.

I think a good spot to do it is against solid regs, that you value called the flop and turn with top pair or any over pair (ex. TT, on a 9536r) and then raise his triple barrel. It's so hard for you to have air there that he has to fold everything but sets...and should fold bottom sets...

Very few spots where it would work though. You need to find a nit to do it against obviously.

From Ed Miller's Facebook -
Should be good stuff.

There are few spots to bluffraise rivers in LLSNL. This is a generalization, but regulars are usually going to be polarized on the river. If it isn't a regular, we don't want to try to make villain fold, because they probably never fold.

Fortunately I had a good amount of experience playing online (NL50 and 100), and have now begun to make the transition to live (NL200) now. A lot of the exact same logic and thinking translates very well. I can tell you this, and I'm sure I'm just preaching to the choir, but whenever I would have a crap session, and I'd be reviewing my hands, it'd be because I'd attempt fancy, tricky bluffs that turned into epic facepalms. Don't even bother. It's not worth it.

Having said that, you obviously can bluff, but let's try to make it against known, semi-competent players who are paying attention to you, and that you aren't in a massive pot against

The only time I ever bluff the river live is if it's HU with relatively little action and there's 4 to a flush out there. I find bluffing 4 card flushes to have a high success rate. As for bluff RAISING the river? Never. Fish just call with too much junk. If they've made it to the river it's because they have something, so there's no sense in trying to get them to fold it. Instead, try to be value betting them with strong hands, thats where your money comes from.

Bluff Raising Rivers. This is something I learned from ivey and I use in 1/3 and 2/5 games.

For the most part most players have bet sizing tells otr. Its usually because a draw comes in that their scared of. Or their hand is fairly weak. Remember low stakes players don't value bet small otr. Use this to your advantage when you miss your draw/dont have sdv.

Second player type this works well against, is tight players who will fold their TPGK,TPTK(other then AK on a Axxxx/Kxxxx) on good boards like back door draws that hit or boards that drastically change otr. Use this to your advantage.

I like to bluff raise rivers because the fish have no more streets to catch up. They only play their cards and if you have a tight image it works very well. They look at the board and look at their hand then fold.

With bet sizing tells I know what they have. You need to range well. I just started bluff raising rivers this year. I never seen the opportunities before. I guess that means I'm getting better at hand reading.

Even if you play solid lag and don't limp you will be viewed as tight. You can still use this play with a true lag image. Not a spew monkey.

My success rate this year is 100%. I have yet to be looked up. Perfect timing I guess.

Yes, but only in position.

You should be raising river when a scare card hits the river, and villan makes a super tiny bet into the river.

Like, villan bets flop and turn halfpot or so, you call with straightdraw or something, a flush or ace hits the river, and villan bets 35 into a 145 pot. You raise to 150 and take the pot 100% of the time. The small bet is not a value bet, its him trying to block a bluff fish style (cuz no one ever raises ever unless they have the nuts!).

The more I'm playing live poker the more I'm realizing how bad a lot of the regs are (particularly the older ones). I would say they play ABC poker to a fault. We all know that when a passive fish suddenly becomes aggressive, they normally have a strong hand. This seems to be the mantra for how these older regs play all of their hands. If they flop top pair, they will bet bet bet and if you show any aggression they will fold.

The vast majority of these regs never bet with a draw. They are betting because they have the best hand. One of the things you can do against these players is draw to a straight on a 2-flush board. Normally, you would only be drawing to 6 outs, but if heads up against these guys you will also win the pot if any flush card comes. If you happen to hit a straight, it will be concealed and you can often get paid off (ie he may put you on a flush draw..why would u draw to a straight on a 2-flush board....that would be his logic).

Also, against fish normally a weak bet-size can demonstrate that they aren't that strong and you can make a oversized bet to take a pot down. You just need to know your opponent and make sure they aren't so bad that they will call you weak. These sort of plays should work better at 2/5 and 5/10 rather than 1/2.

I bluff c/r river once in a while (like maybe 1-2 times a week). Usually it's when I hold certain nut blockers and their range is capped and includes thinnish value bets and some bluffs.

Usually they work but when they don't work you lose a ton of money so they have to succeed most of the time.

I once 4-bet bluffed the river online.

I've done it exactly 3 times in ~1400 hours of live play. Twice at 2/5, successfully. Once at 1/2, where I got called. I made a post about the one of my bluff raises. 7 people were against it (randoms), one was for it (mpethy).

In my experience, this only works against decent TAG or LAG players. I try to avoid bigger pots with decent TAG/LAG players. If I end up playing against one in a pot, I will only make this move if I have a strong read.

Here's one that didn't work out:

$2/5, I raise KQo to $20 from EP. I get one caller, who's a loose action player capable of v-betting thinnish and semi-bluffing post-flop.

Flop K62 (pot $47)

I bet $30 and he calls.

Turn 7 (pot $107)

I bet $75 and he makes it $175. I have the K and I call $100.

River T (pot $457)

I check. He bets $150.

His overall line doesn't really make sense to me, but I didn't want to call his $150 bet because it looks like value and I don't think KQ is good. Holding the K, I announce all-in for $820.

He thinks for like 30 seconds but then says "I gotta call ya" and calls $670 more with 43. He wins the $2097 pot.

I still like my play though. It sucks to lose that much on a bluff but I think the play works 58% of the time (about what I need given pot size).

Yeah that's just bad timing.

Every time I've done it successfully, draws came in, the player had made it clear to me how strong his hand was, and the player had made it clear how he would respond to a raise (takes a certain player type to use a particular betting pattern consistently). One player had also made it obvious they had a psychological thing with seeing bet sizes as absolutes instead of relatives. The pot was small or smallish every time. Usually I did not have initiative at any point in the hand.

The burden once you think they are marginal is making your bet look credible to them. A long time ago I made a bad river bluff raise that got called; that time the pot was larger, effective stacks were such that I had not much fold equity, and his hand was stronger than I thought because I didn't bother putting him on a range. Since making those mistakes I took a tighter approach since I don't particularly like to be wrong when I bluff. It'd be a sin not to at least attempt it when all signs are pointing towards "this will work so often"

If your big bluffs always work you're not doing it often enough.

It can't really be a check raise as so many players will only bet the river when they have a hand they are calling with. Furthermore you have to be really deep for this to work or they will be priced in. As shown above even when opponent should pass (in failed attempt above is good example) opponent just thinks I got a flush I call. Even though they think they might be beat and hate calling they just aren't gonna be folding much. When it goes wrong it goes really bad.

You can raise the river in position if they obv hate it and blocker bet some absurd amount. It really helps though if you don't have a reputation for being a fos merchant. Also bet a lot so people don't sigh call.

That's the key difference between my bluffs and your example. I have only bluff shoved once in the last year in big pots, I'm a nit.

But now I found away to be nitty and raise as bluffs. I choose medium sized pots around 200-300$. When I draw and miss. Oop lead/fold and r/f weak opponents in position. Medium sized they tend to let go easier then big pots, because most are "pot committed".

Edit: stack sizes are key factors 100bbs+ is my target area.

I made a sick raise into 6 other players the other day with 3-2offsuit. I had straddled the hand, so there was $70 in the pot. Flop JJ8. Everyone checks. Turn 5 (JJ85). Everyone checks. River 3 (no flush hits, JJ853). Player bets weak $20. Up until this point everyone seemed completely disinterested in this hand.

I felt that this was a good spot because the 3 is generally not going to improve one's hand and it's unlikely anyone had the nuts on this board so I bump it to $120 representing a boat (from the straddle i could have any 2 cards). Unfortunately for me I am insta-called by a 3rd player who happened to have 33 (the case 3s) and rivered a boat. I still think it was a pretty good spot. I probably could have bet-sized it a bit better and saved myself $20.

I disagree. In too many 1/2 games people are so bad that there are few occasions where a big bluff is appropriate. A 400 bb bluff like you tried is insane when you can wait for a better spot where it's not necessary to risk so much.

Yeah is more worthwhile trying small or medium sized bluffs in pots where their range will not be so strong. Once the pot is huge then most 1/2 players will have a big hand. After all, once someone has a big stack they are not eager to lose it. People do not generally pass big hands at 1/2

This is not how I play no-limit hold'em. You can't win what you don't risk. If I see a profitable situation I'm not afraid to stick 200+ BB in the middle. I don't wait for "better spots" because when I sit down at the table I literally want to win everyone's chips. Passing up marginally profitable situations is the difference between a winner and a crusher.

Could I have folded to his turn raise and waited for a better spot? Yes. Could I have folded to his $150 river bet? Yes. Hell if I posted this hand as a seperate topic the first 5 responses would probably go "fold pf."

In the 10 seconds that it took me to shove all-in on the river my thought process went like this:

1) He can't have the nuts. His bet is way too small. He can't have the second nuts either because I hold the blocker.
3) He might be value-betting a set of 7's, K7/KT, or even a 98 that floated the flop. He's likely folding those.
4) He might not fold any flush, but his overall line and bet-sizing on the river just doesn't look like a flush.
5) My line is consistent with how I'd play the nuts (this probably doesn't matter here).
6) His range could include some bluffs, but not enough for me to profitably call.
7) ARR-IN.

I happened to be wrong on point 4, but overall I think it's gotta at least be close (in terms of how often this play should work), so I'm ok with how I played the hand.

You are thinking on many levels. Your bluff may work on a 5/10 or a 10/20 game where people realise they have a bluff catcher in this spot. It probably won't work vs a level one thinker who clearly has a big hand. ( he bet big) When it fails which is a way higher time than you think, we lose a 1000bb pot. The risk isn't worth the reward IMO. You say it worked at 2/5; they were probably higher thinkers and understood relative hand strength more. Most people playing 1/2 travelled a while to get to the casino. They didn't travel all that way to fold flushes. This is what makes 1/2 so potentially lucrative.