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big suited connectors big suited connectors

01-20-2012 , 01:16 PM
One of the benefits to 76s is that it is usually easier to play postflop (due to it being very easy to fold 2nd or 3rd pair, unlike suited broadway which is often flopping top pair). One of the drawbacks to 76s vs suited broadway is that 76s gets overflushed a lot more.

If the pot looks like it's going to be multiway, I have no problem trying to keep it that way with suited broadway (but obviously I'm not playing for TP). If it looks like it's gonna not go multiway, then I'm probably more for iso'ing in LP (even though it is possible we could be dominated).
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01-20-2012 , 01:22 PM
If you are losing money when you flop top pair with KTs it is your play that should be improve, not the hands that you play that should be changed. People are way, way, way underestimating the value of winning hands with one pair.

winning hands >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>having an easy decision to fold
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01-20-2012 , 01:44 PM
KT is not a suited connector- it is a two gapper, which means you will flop far less combo draws than withal a genuine suited connector.

That being said, KTs is a fine hand and certainly as playable as a mid range suited connector.

All this talk about what is easier to play and that mid range suited connectors are easier to get away from makes me think that a lot of players are over estimating their implied odds with suited connectors.

If you are only playing a suited connector to make a big hand and play for stacks, you are probably losing money with them. You better be certain you can semi-bluff and play your draws well of you want to profit from these hands. Possibly you might even need to induce bluffs with third pair or raise with air sometimes.

In comparison, you better not be playing KTs to flop two pair or a flush and expect to make a profit with it either. You are going to have to be good enough to realize your big pair value when you hit without getting too invested those times you are behind.

Each of these hands is probably worth less than a BB if you play them profitably, including all those times you make a huge kill. That means a lot of work and investment in handling tricky situations when you don't hit big- it's these little profits that increase your winrate when they all add up, which means being able to pick the right spots for BOTH types of hands and play them well.
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01-20-2012 , 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phulhouze
Seriously? Are you really responding to all the detailed and logically supported arguments by just saying, "wow, everyone else is wrong and stupid." If you try to explain why you think this is so, you might a) teach someone somthing or b) learn something when someone else points out a flaw in your logic. That's why we're here, so if you're not prepared to explain yourself, why bother posting?
Sorry phullhouse,

The boards that K10s makes straights on are very wet, AQJ, QJ9, so your guaranteed to get paid. You can make or draw to a flush and feel comfortable. K10s has more equity then AKo if you see 5cards vs random hands. You can flop a pair that can win a pot.

76 is deceptive but when you hit the board. Your only getting paid by overpairs. If you flop a pair its like flopping air. The good thing about 76 is when you flop open ended vs A,K or Q(ex. A98/K54). But those boards are hard to get. You can also make a straight flush.

The deciding factor with both hands. Is the potential pairs that will be flopped. K10s tips the scale on that note. Then add in K10x flops, the ev is threw the roof.

Last edited by PokahBlows; 01-20-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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01-20-2012 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quesuerte
If you are losing money when you flop top pair with KTs it is your play that should be improve, not the hands that you play that should be changed. People are way, way, way underestimating the value of winning hands with one pair.

winning hands >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>having an easy decision to fold
Well said. I'm sure if I could look at my hand histories playing live poker, that I've won more with KTs than 67s simply because of the one pair showdown value in small to mid-size pots.

Also, I'm definitely not stacking off with a one pair KTs hand.
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01-20-2012 , 02:42 PM
KTs is definitely a better hand HU than 67s but 67s is a better hand in a multi way pot.

If you have KTs on the button then raise it up PF and try to get it to 2 or 3 handed. If everybody comes along then so what, you still have position and don't go broke if you flop TP.
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01-20-2012 , 04:24 PM
If you are playing 5 handed or with stacks of 50 BB or less, KT is better. IF you are playing a 9 handed limp fest with 100+ BB, 76 is better.
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01-20-2012 , 11:10 PM
I realize ANL has to make a living, but just to give a taste of the thinking involved behind playing these hands. It is about the ranges.

The first consideration is whether you are raising or calling. If you are raising, your villains have 3 choices. They can fold, which is a win. It doesn't matter whether you have 76 or KT. They can raise. If they raise at LLSNL, it is going to be a pretty narrow range for the most part and it is an easy fold with either hand. If they call, their range can be fairly wide, but in general KT is going to be competitive against a calling range of Ax, pp and sc (42% equity). 76, not so much (33% equity). Therefore, you want to raise with KT rather than 76.

If you are calling, you need to put a villain on a range. If the villain's range is AQ+, TT+, actually 76 has more equity (slightly). More importantly, most of KT's value comes from the villain missing his range and you hitting a K. If this happens, you aren't going to get much from most villains. They'll cbet once and give up. If the flop comes low and you hit it, you can be sure your villain hasn't hit it harder. Therefore, I like calling with 76 better than calling KT.

I've been re-reading Harrington (for the gazillionth time). One of the problems with HOC is that he throws off these one liners that are important, but he doesn't emphasize. One of them is that he doesn't like playing SC in a limped pot, but would rather play them HU in a raised pot, especially in position. I have lots of ways to win with SC in a HU situation with a narrow range for the villain in position. In a limped pot, I've got to hit the flop so hard to have a reasonable chance of having the best hand that it is nearly impossible for anyone else to commit much money to it.
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01-21-2012 , 11:25 AM
Has anyone considered the fact that when we have a hand like K10ss and miss the flop we usually have some equity on say a Q high board. We can make a much more ev bet with K10ss on this type of board considering we can back door straightening outs, hit a king etc... but with 67ss we are basically one and done on the flop which sucks. I think having that one overcard makes this a no brainer on which of these hands is stronger. Anytime you have a hand that can back in to lots of draws, allowing us to keep the pressure on by semi-bluffing has to be good. I just think this will happen more often and profitably with K10 then 67 since we have those "extra" big card out usually
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